TO ALL CHRISTIANS, HINDUS, MUSLIMS, SECULARISTS, COMMUNISTS and all people who have a heart, who loves the nation and her heritage, who believes in ethics and values.
M.F.Hussain is trying to create problems between Hindus & Muslims.
He is trying to create communal tension and clashes. No true Musalman brother will do this, no true hindus or christians or true communists or any one who wants communal harmony, and hindu-muslim unity will not do this. Any responsible, nation loving Indian who understands India and its heritage will never do this.
"Greater the freedom, Higher the responsibility. M.F.Hussain should have used the freedom of expression in a much more responsible manner" - Maharashtra Court
I request you to go through these and react... React very strongly. Vande Mataram
(These are only some pictures, There are many more vulgar and obscene pictures, this is deliberate insult)
Hussain claims "Rape of India" is a response to terror attacks in Mumbai.
In America there were terrorist attacks, will he paint Rape of America ?
In Pakistan terrorist attacks happen twice every week, why doesnt he paint Gang Rape of Pakistan ?
Holy Mecca was attacked by terrorists once, will he paint Rape of Mecca ?
We consider India as holy as a temple, church or mosque. Thats why Mahatma Gandhiji
once installed "Bharat Matha Temple". We see Nation as Mother, as Goddess.
We cannot be too soft on either terrorits or anti national painters like Hussain.
Sita Matha and Sri Rama are the oldest symbols existing in this part of the continent. Is painting the private parts of Sita Devi justified in the name of freedom of expression. Hussain knows that painting these things will create controversy and get him publicity. But 'using' these sacred symbols for selling and getting publicity is cheap and cunning.
Hey Ram were the last words of Gandhiji. Rama Rajya to him was the ideal state where all people and religions lived in harmony. Rama was 'purushottama', the ideal man.
60 years of Independence is morally the journey from Mahatmaji's Ram and Sita to Hussain's Ram and Sita
Dear Brothers and Sisters, My name is Rahul Easwar.
I usually dont write blogs nor am I a person who is very much into internet. But for the the past some days I was very disturbed about the above pictures. I was extremely sad and depressed over the above pictures. How can we allow a person to insult national, historic and cultural symbols and be happy and okay about it ???
It is something concerning you, me our future generations and our nation as such.
Please protest this move by the Kerala Government. The above pictures offends the national pride, dignity of women, religious feeling, secular and ethical fabric of our nation.
Silence is golden, but not always; many a times it becomes a sin
React, for we all have mother, sister, wife and family.
Let us take a pledge on this great day, that these kind of hatred creating cultureless elements will not be tolerated.
LET US SAY THAT WITH PRIDE THAT No one will be allowed to disturb the moral, cultural and national fabric of the nation. May our hearts rise to the heavens on this Independence day and declare who ever insults national pride and our culture will not be spared.
I HAVE HEARD SOME PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL,
SO-CALLED "LIBERAL" COMMENTS SUPPORTING M.F.HUSSAIN . LET ME REMIND " NO PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD IS "LIBERAL" and "BROAD MINDED" about his own MOTHER, SISTER, WIFE and DAUGHTER..
I CHALLENGE ANY ONE TO BE "LIBERAL" about THEM
(with immense apologies to their family).
WE LOVE OUR NATION AND CULTURE HIGHER THAN OUR FAMILY AND OURSELVES...WHAT WILL WE DO IF SOME ONE PAINTS OUR FAMILY MEMBERS NUDE, SEX MANIAC and VULGAR ???
...WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO M.F.HUSSAIN ???
LET M.F.Hussain not receive the RAJA RAVI VARMA award on September 17th 2007
AND WE HAVE WON...Kerala High Court and Maharasthra Court came to uphold Justice, Hon'ble Kerala High Court stopped the award and Maharashtra court issued arrest warrant to Hussain
Jai Hind
1,364 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 1364 Newer› Newest»milnd : You deserve to be ignored because you are just targetting me and not commenting on the topic.
silpa: If Hussain is like father & mother (even if he is your real father) for you and you got hurt when somebody talks bad about him, just remember he has hurt millions & millions with his paintings. People who are hurt by his paintings cannot see him with respect
Mr.Rajan : War against government for nothing ? Will this government dare give an award to Salman Rushdie or Taslima Nasreen if they are so secular minded ?
Will they give an award for somebody who writes against China? Will they give an award to somebody who writes against their leaders or ideals?
You try to blame Rahul for displaying the pictures on his blog .Why does that be of concern to you ? You are talking blindly in favour of the government when people are protesting over its decision to give an award in the name of Great Raja Ravi Varma to a cheap prankster. Do you think they will appreciate his so-called art & bestow this prestigious award on him if he depicted Karl Marx or Lenin in bad taste? If they get hurt when newspapers accuse & expose them, and brand the Press as a caucus acting against them, how can they talk for freedom of expression and give this award to somebody who has hurt the sentiments of millions?
It seems your main concern is not Hussain, the award or the so-called freedom of exression, but just the government. Let me tell you, I am not against the government, and the only protest is the way it hurts Hindus by giving an award to somebody who hurt its believers. I believe it is the same with most of the people who voice their protest here.
If the government respects freedom of exression it should not have termed the Press as 'A Caucus working against the government" and it should not have its activists attack Mathrubhumi office & burn copies of Malayala Manorama daily. People who resect freedom of exression ? They get hurt even if somebody talk against China ! You call this freedom of exression ?
Sad state of affairs. A person to do it and others like us to keep his fame down. Lets not talk about him. Its the govt body of Kerala to speak about. Kerala as a part of secular country should be discouraged from these kind of actions.
@Rajan,
still i cannot understand what you meant by your last post. he placed the pictures here is the proof, even with this solid proof ppl like you are still with that abuser.
yes rahul placed those pictures here to reveal the ugly face of a porn artist M.F. Hussain, and for the same reason millions of indians
are not in a position to give an award in the name of a great artist Raja Ravi varma.
@shilpa,
you are so pathetic, better to quit is place, because you are not even deserve an answer for your comments.
and come back to Mr.Zen
why you are forgetting certain things in your arguments?
Hussian got this courage only because of he is in india. Can you do it in any other country? Can you insult any of their religious concepts? Can you illustrate any of their religious symbols or symbols belongs to their country?
@Zen
I told you repeatedly - Hussein is not a practicing Muslim and Muslims have nothing to do his paintings either. But I don't think fanatics will have any understanding
James : This single statement itself revealed where you are… how can you know that hussain is doing this/that? Those facts even his wife cannot say! You are a blind supporter of hussain, it seems. Here I am not blaming the entire muslim community.only some insane ppl like Hussain is only responsible for this.
@Zen
Bin laden is a militant hiding somewhere in the mountains. MF is a world renowned artist who was called "Picasso of India" by Forbes magazine and whose paintings often carry $2 million worth in it
James : According to Forbes magazine he may be the Picasso of India. But who gave the authority to this Indian Picasso to hurt millions of Indians? Who gave this Picasso to abuse the beliefs of millions of Hindus living here?
He may be the Picasso for Forbes, but he is only a cheap third rate porn artist for Indians and who all are worship the divinity of the arts.
Oh another comedy. his paintings often carry $2 million worth! – holy shit…
Do you have any idea about how much it worth for Bin Laden’s head? I think more than $2 million!!
Zen all of your arguments are void in the context of the feelings and patriotism of millions of Indians. You cannot simply ignore that even if you are the son of M.F Hussian.
@Zen:
What I wrote was I never justified the violent protests, not the cartoons itself. I think cartoons were deliberately insulting, but still cartoonist had the right to publish, atleast in his private newspaper
James : As you said here nobody will complain if he published his ‘artwork’ in his private newspaper. Instead of that he showcased this in everywhere he can. Then also nobody protest as such. Here the protest is when Kerala Govt is giving an award to him for his ‘art’ – in the name of – RAJA RAVI VARMA.
When millions of Indians are against this, how can a democratic govt can deliberately take a decision like this??? Its INJUSTICE…it should not be happen.
Shashi Tharoor's response to this psychophancy of throwing dirt at an eminent artist.
Please read it and respond to the points without reiterating some rhetorics.
It's time to stop harassing M F Husain
29 Jul 2007, 0052 hrs IST,Shashi Tharoor
The question of why Husain doesn't paint Muslim figures in the nude is a red herring. The Islamic tradition is a different one from either the Hindu or the Western; what causes offence in one is different from what causes offence in another. Islam, after all, prohibits any visual depiction of the Prophet, whereas visualising our gods and goddesses is central to the practice of Hinduism.
The emails and messages still haven't stopped coming in on the Husain paintings of unclad Hindu goddesses, but I think it's time to draw a line under that debate with one last foray. First, though, i'd like to deal with those who've questioned my own record: many have written to ask whether I have spoken out in favour of freedom of expression elsewhere (i have, for decades, and continue to do so); whether I have publicly defended Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Verses (i have, widely, and in writing as well as in person); and whether I have spoken in favour of the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed (I have not, because I consider them a needless provocation). The last line of questioning, I must say, irritated me; those who draw a parallel between Husain's art and a bunch of cartoons have not begun to understand the first thing about either.
But it's time to acknowledge that one category of objection cannot be lightly dismissed. I wrote a few weeks ago about those readers who, while fully respecting Husain as an artist, and without expressing any of the communal bigotry that I found particularly distasteful about this affair, nonetheless expressed anguish at seeing representations of goddesses in the nude. They wrote of their hurt that images they worshipped should have been so depicted; many asked why Husain has not depicted figures of other faiths, including his own, undressed. Several added that this was because Hindus are a pushover; other faiths are more robust in their self-defence, whereas Hindus like me are all too willing to accept being insulted.
There's a lot to be said about all this that one can't fit into a single Sunday column. But some points must be made. First: I don't feel insulted by the paintings because (unlike the Danish cartoons) no insult was intended. As i've explained before, Husain is no Johnny-come-lately; he is a major artist, a national treasure, one with a long record of being inspired by Hindu mythology as a major source of inspiration for his work. His paintings of goddesses are consistent with 50 years of his paintings of other iconic Hindu images, clad and unclad. I saw the paintings in that context; his critics saw them out of context (and judging by some emails I received, grossly exaggerated what the paintings depicted: a Hindutva website falsely alleges that Husain shows Durga in sexual relations with a tiger, something it would take a perfervid imagination to see in his picture!) Husain saw his paintings as being within a millennial Indian tradition in which nudity has been widely used in art, including on temple walls. So did i. But I accept that's not enough.
Husain as an artist has long used form to suggest ideas beyond form; images in his works are both less and more than realistic depictions of what they portray. His paintings are full of metaphors and allusions; the body, he has often said, is a representation of something formless, illusory (maya). As a Hindu, I did not see his goddesses as literal depictions of the images I worship. I believe in the Upanishadic view that the Divine is essentially unknowable, and that all worship consists of human beings stretching out their hands to that which they cannot touch. But since we humans, with our limited minds, need something more specific to aid our imaginations, we visualise God in forms that we find more easily recognisable. Hinduism, in accepting that need, also gives its adherents an infinite variety of choices about how to imagine God. That's why there are 333,000 names and depictions of the Divine in Hinduism; each Hindu may pick the ones he wishes to venerate, and the form in which he wishes to venerate them. There's nothing more 'authentic' about a Raja Ravi Varma image of Saraswati than that of a calendar artist; each is imagining the goddess according to his own sensibility. As a Hindu, I had no difficulty in according Husain the same right.
The question of why Husain doesn't paint Muslim figures in the nude is a red herring. The Islamic tradition is a different one from either the Hindu or the Western; what causes offence in one is different from what causes offence in another. Islam, after all, prohibits any visual depiction of the Prophet, whereas visualising our gods and goddesses is central to the practice of Hinduism.
But having said that, one has to accept that people of good faith may well have been offended — and if so, it's not enough to tell them they shouldn't be. Husain himself accepts that if you hurt people unintentionally, the right thing to do is to apologise. And he has done so, more than once. Since when have Hindus become so ungracious that we refuse to accept apologies?
On his current visit to the United States, Husain was asked by a radio interviewer how he felt about the controversy "as a Muslim". The 92-year-old Master bridled. "I'm an Indian and a painter, that's all," he said. As an Indian and a painter he has brought immense honour to our country and our civilisation. Is it right that, in the tenth decade of his illustrious life, he should live abroad, fearful of being hounded and harassed if he sets foot in his native land? I appeal to the very sense of decency that some readers claim Husain has violated. Let us put this matter beyond us, accept his apology, and withdraw the multiple cases that have been filed against him and which have destroyed his peace of mind. The persecution of Husain does not show Hindus acting in robust self-defence; it shows us as petty and small-minded. What does it say about us as a society if, instead of offering our greatest living artist an honoured place, we tell him he is not welcome in his own homeland? It is time to end this harassment — not just for Husain, but for our own sake as a civilisation.
Husain's critics voice their angst
24 Jun 2007, 0035 hrs IST,Shashi Tharoor
I suppose I should have been braced for the inevitable backlash that came my way in response to my column 'Why is India's Picasso staying away?', about the persecution of M F Husain, but I was still taken aback by the virulence of the attacks directed at me. Emailers and bloggers of a particular persuasion have insulted me roundly, called me everything from a deracinated intellectual to a 'jihadist', and dragged my mother, sisters and wife into their outrage as well. What on earth has happened to civilised discourse in our country? That people educated enough, and affluent enough, to have recourse to the internet, should express themselves in this manner is almost as depressing as the content of their convictions. I grew up in an India of school debates and inter-college tourneys in which we were encouraged, indeed expected, to disagree with each other, but to do so with reasoned argument, not invective. I am sure that India still exists, but it has yet to manifest itself on this issue.
There was one honourable exception to the unrelenting tirades of the self-righteous: a sincere and thoughtful email from a K V Sundaravadanan, respectfully expressing his anguish at Husain's paintings of Hindu goddesses and my defence of them. After all the hate mail i have received from those who disagree with me, it was a pleasure to hear from one who couches his concerns in such evident decency. But that does not mean he has persuaded me.
Mr Sundaravadanan acknowledges that Husain's paintings "no doubt have brought laurels to this country. But," he goes on, "what purpose have his pieces on Goddess Saraswati and Bharatmata achieved? Have they brought universal joy to the beholder? The artist should bring joy to the people and not pain or revulsion." That point, sir, is easily dealt with: few works of art elicit unanimous responses of either joy or revulsion. Aesthetic appreciation is often a subjective matter, and a painting that brings you joy might easily leave me indifferent, or vice-versa.
His second point, however, touched me. "I am an ordinary, very ordinary, individual, going about my life peacefully, without consciously causing mental or physical pain or anguish to anyone", writes Sundaravadanan. "I am probably a representative of millions of Hindus in this country or abroad, devout, and respectful to not only Hinduism but also other religions. The demolition of the Babri Masjid caused enormous mental anguish, which lasted for months. The above mentioned paintings of Mr Husain caused similar anguish which still hurts." And he adds: "i, like my millions of fellow followers of my religion, are a voiceless lot..."
Certainly the gentler voices of ordinary and well-meaning folk are all too often drowned out by the raucous cries of the extremists on both sides of any controversy these days, which is why i believe it is essential for liberal commentators like myself to listen to them. It would be foolish of us to pretend that the anguish expressed by Sundaravadanan is not real. But it is, sadly, unnecessary and misplaced.
Had Husain set out to denigrate Hinduism the way that the mobs set out to demolish the Babri Masjid, such anguish would be understandable. But Husain is a painter with a six-decade record of not just respecting Hinduism but of being inspired by it. In countless paintings he has revealed a profound and subtle appreciation of the tales and legends of Hindu tradition, allusions to which (and depictions of which) infuse much of his art. This is not some deracinated shock-jock, but an Indian as immersed in the Hindu cultural heritage as any artist who professes the Hindu faith. He has depicted goddesses and the quasi-divine characters of our mythology in his work for decades. But why unclad, Sundaravadanan may well ask. For millennia there has been a distinction in art between 'nudity' and 'nakedness'. The human form, whether ascribed to real people, mythological figures or divine beings, has long been a major subject of artists and sculptors in every tradition. Nudity was a staple of Indian art and sculpture for millennia: some of the most exquisite statues and temple carvings from antiquity depict goddesses (as well as apsaras, gandharvas and mythological characters) unclothed. It is the artistic merit of the work that distinguishes a nude from a salacious or pornographic depiction of the naked body. Michelangelo's David is revered and visited by millions every month. Yet, it shows a fully naked young man in anatomically explicit detail. What is more, David is the great hero of the Jewish people. Yet, there have never been any protests by Jews or others about Michelangelo's (or many other artists') depictions of David in the nude, because the artist's intent and the quality of his work speak for themselves.
In my view, that is also true of MF Husain. His intent is neither salacious nor hostile to Hinduism: he has depicted divine figures in keeping with the artistic sensibility of his age, just as Raja Ravi Varma's depictions of Saraswati reflect the best of Victorian canons of realist art. Sundaravadanan is of course free to disagree about the merits of Husain's work or his choice of subject-matter. Not everything Husain paints is equally worthy of admiration: his output is so prodigious that some of it is uneven. I have myself publicly questioned his depiction of Indira Gandhi as Goddess Durga in 1971. His motives were clearly political, but as a work of art the Durga/Indira painting is still impressive. That, in the end, should be the only criterion that matters.
Sundaravadanan adds his concern that Husain's work could provoke "sexual crimes and assaults on women". That, i'm afraid, is where he loses me. No work of art can explain or justify any sex crime; if an assault occurs, the criminals should be punished, not the artist. To put the artist in the dock for the misbehaviour of his detractors is to betray the best of our civilisation at the behest of the worst. And that no right-thinking Indian should let happen.
-----------------------------------
Well these two articles sums up what I (and hundereds of people like me) have to voice about this. If you intend to argue, please come up with strong counter points and not rhetorics and strawman opinions (like will you bear if your mother were painted in this way). And if you intend to do that please read the article twice before doing that and you should also stop visiting hundreds of famous Hindu temples from Madhura meenakshi to Sree Padmanabha.
Mr. ayyappandasa
This is not the first time i'm seeing you in internet. i saw many of your postings as a BIG supporter of communism in many places including orkut. :). so for what this entire shows here? a link to sashi tharur's articile is enough instead of this long copy-paste excercise.
Every indians or the insulted Hundu community is not considered this sasi tharur as their cultural icon or indian idol to follow his thoughts and words.this is how he thinks, and how he feels about this. it may not be the same for everyone in this country. For how many years he lived here in india to know the pains and harassments facing by the comman man in india/kerala?
i too don like it.,.it is baad.,.really baad .,.,hurtin ones religious beliefs.,.is aserious violation an encroachment.,.,m f hussain shud apologize.,,
I strongly agree with 'Ayyappadas'
You know in how many art schools they have drawing studies of the nude...do you think they are pornographic in nature ??
Its an art form....remember that first !!
Seriously...this is arousing more hatred among ppl !!
This what happens lots of times. People misunderstand so easily...and big problems like this arise !!
I thought this was for INDEPENDENCE DAY...and this does no justice !!
You shud have tried to understand that art is a whole new world and not just draw what you see !!
Most prob will be deleted eh ??
If drawing nude is an essential for enriching your 'art', draw your picture, or draw your family/friends it wont be an issue.
Why you are hurting the beliefs of others?
Ithippo pandu arandu parenjathu poley...
"Paaalum thatti kalanju...kadikkuvem cheythu..ennnituum pattikkano murumurupp..."
I'm feeling strange, still you ppl are not regretting about the mistakes you are doing, instead of that you are trying to justifying it.
Rahul, Young man,
i have been watching you over the years and was getting doubts , lately, whether your evolution is happening in the right way. You are hyper-energetic and as a person gone thru your age , i can advise you - you better control yourself with more reasoning and wisdom rather than impetuosity which your opponents will relish- to ditch you and brand you. You know a recent case of a hyper energetic person, the best orator in contemporary Kerala and who would have been an influential figure in Dalit uprising - how many years he spent in a closed cell in TN. Beware when you go against institutionalised entities.Once in a while, go thru Artha shastra/ Lao Tsu.
The country needs people like you and you need to be careful on your missions. you are the right person at the right time at the right place. Our country is the bullish side of grand supercycle of centuries and the centre of gravity of the world is shifting in our favour. be there to ride the people in the right direction.
MFH is a crook and a just a noise in the public domain. He is exploitng the syncretic fabric of Indian society for publicity.His selling point is the publicity gimmicks and his support base of pseudo-secularists. Eroticism was a part Shaktic worship tradition of Indus Civilization. But , exploitation of such worship symbols needs to be denounced.
What is curious is- public figures like Shashi Tharoor supporting such bigots. Only Kamala Das knows the experience of having freedom of expression and artistic freedom while dealing with Islamic symbols( Here the Religion is not to blame, but the followers are blind with dogmatic flavor ) Remember her interview in Outlook after the conversion.
- infinion ( india's soul searcher )
___________________________________
www.infinions.blogspot.com
@ anuj nair ( The voice of Rahul Easwer....)
Buddy you are greatest watchdog i've ever seen in any blog/community. But stop barkin at others who disagree with your insane visions abt god, hinduism & culture. They are also indians, they have their equal right to express their opinions, dont tempt others minds for your cheap self supremacy.
@renjith-times ..
Why you are cursing Mr.Anuj? look him and learn from him, instead of calling him as a watchdog. i think you have some personal revenge to him. shame on you buddy.
Isn't it a personal insult? first of all behave yourself!
ohh.. i forget it...you are from the same league of hussain, got license to insult anyone anytime. and you will get some insane friends to support also.
What to say..? pity on you my dear friend.
and finally,
i will accept hussain, if he has enough courage to illustrate any religious symbols in any other countries...
you know why sasi tharur supported hussain? if he raise a single word against this old insane,sasi tharur will suffer...he is not living in inidia. he / his family may get kidnapped/ he may be thrown out from the country where he is living now!
He is pretty wise fellow man :)
but here india, its our mother land, here we haven't any fear to anybody.
We will say WRONG, if we found wrong. thats it.
Mr. James,
Again, as expected your reply was more a rhetoric than logic or let me take the liberty to use the word 'sensibility'.
Let me first point out the 'unethical' branding that you impose up on individuals. What difference does it make, if I were supporting left in many a issues? Does that deny me the right to voice an opinion as an individual citizen or does that make me something lesser an Indian. Amongst those people who feel no pity at themselves in using words like 'pseudo-secularist' at will and whims(please tell me then who a secularist is? I suppose you people are the authority to decide that), or in self proclamtion of being the "true Indian", atleast I feel more comfortable hearing the voice of an Indian, who whether or not lived for his whole life here, has much more pride, sensibility and conviction in the "idea of India" that he belives. And apart, as you must be aware, Tharoor is not any left leaning person for me to bank up for an opinion. Neither did I put him as idol who ought not be questioned. The point was the issues he raised, which none of you could logically diparage
"you know why sasi tharur supported hussain? if he raise a single word against this old insane,sasi tharur will suffer...he is not living in inidia. he / his family may get kidnapped/ he may be thrown out from the country where he is living now!"
Where did you get that from!!!!!
Who is engaging in these sychophancies, we the 'pseudo-secularists', who don't give death threats, or deny the merit of an art even if it may not be fulfilling with respect to our cultural sensibilities, who (atleast the majority) are against bans on artistic freedom (which are not politically motivated to intentionally pour fuel into the fire) or the people you admire (the people who break into the art gallery and destroy paintings). Tharoor will have no harm even if he opposes Hussain for sure. But he should be careful to be in N. India, since he has supported Hussain.
"For how many years he lived here in india to know the pains and harassments facing by the comman man in india/kerala?" - that Mr. is not a qualification/disqualification when we enter the crux of this discussion. Can you please elaborate those "insults and harassments" that some of you alone had to face "living in India/Kerala"? Well, since I belong to a lower middle class family, born and practised hindu religion for over first 15 years, did not find too much of this harrassment. Also just tyr to live in Hindi belt for 3/4 years to know the value of Kerala; the value of the freedom of expression.
Now, about common man's sensibility issue, let me just put one sentence make the point- what do you make out if somebody writes, "as a little kid, the little me and the whole of my unclad body must have longed for my mother's breast for warmth and security. I was more than food."?
Now, I have mentioned the words "breast", "unclad" (nudity) and associated them with mother. Would you call that incest? If you do, I will call you a pervert and that is not my problem. So it is not M. F. Hussain's too. But if you don't know English and somebody tells you that this sentence contain words like "breast", "unclad" and is associating this to mother, that might convince you that the writer meant incest. The difference is only the knowledge of art. if you are not good at it or have not gone deep into that, please refrain from commenting.
Last but not the least, I find no contradiction or hypocrisy about Hussain banking up on the Indian cultural sensibility in producing an art work. Hussain is an Indian, the whole of Indian mythology is not a closed book of a religion. Mahabharatha and Ramayana are every Indian's tradition and legacy; not just a Hindu religions' legacy. Khajurahoo, Thanjavoor etc exist in India not elsewhere and most importantly "Raghuvamsam" by Kalidasa is part of this great Indian legacy where he describes "Parvati" in erotic details.....
If you protest claiming that you are part of that legacy, you are nothing but contradicting yourself. That makes you nothing but another jihadist.
Wish Ayyappadas & Vishakh realise that nobody is protesting against Hussain because he is muslim. In fact, the protest here is against the Kerala Government bestowing on him an award in the name of Great Raja Ravi Varama.
Shashi Tharoor may write what he feel is right for him at this occasion and he was till recently writing very much in favour of Americas attack on Iraq with an eye on the votes for the post of UN Secretary General.
Here he says the Danish cartoon issue is different because it is against Islam to visualise or portray The Prophet. Then what about Satanic Verses ? In Satanic Verses Salman Rushdies profainity of The Prophets wive's hurt the Orthodox Muslim community, it was not visualisation of The Prophet.It is the same with the writings of Taslima Nasreen,they do not visualise The Prophet.
Hussain visualises his mother and daughter well-clad but he visualises Bharat Mata nude ! Can somebody tell me a temple where Ram or Sita is sculpted in nude?
A student of Vadodara's Maharaja Sayjirao University, one self-styled artist Chandra Mohan painted a huge cross with a nude Christ apparently urinating into a commode.That hurts me too, and do not think that the people who protest here are happy if it happens to some other religion.
It is people the likes of ranjith-times, zen and shilpa who are happy with it.
Back to the Danish cartoon. It is interesting that when, in 2006, there were protests by Muslims in India following the admittedly distasteful Danish newspaper cartoons depicting Prophet Mohammed as a terrorist, the reaction was remarkably indulgent and understanding.
Far from asking the UGC to step in, the Union Government had put off the visit of the Danish Prime Minister and officially protested to his Government about the publication of the cartoons in a private newspaper. As for the Left, on March 2, 2006, the CPI participated with Muslim organisations in a massive rally in Mumbai, protesting against President George W Bush's arrival in India and the Danish cartoons. Anybody can understand it is just with an eye on the muslim vote bank and not for the love for just that one religion.
Let somebody dare paint Karl Marx or Lenin in bad taste. Karl Marx & Lenin are the gods of the communists. They hang their pictures at the party offices & even on all the comrades homes ! They garland those pictures & see them with respect. I know about a popular leader who keeps the sand he collected from the garve of Karl Marx and considers it sacred.
How much freedom of expression does anybody in the ruling party enjoy? Writer and cultural activist K.C.Umesh Babu was expelled from Progressive Art & Literature Society (PUKASA) which is run by the State CPM leadership for writing a poem 'FEARS' published in the magazine Janashakthi. FEARs was just assumed to be critical of the CPM leadership. Why didn't the government appreciate & respect Umesh Babu's freedom of expression ?
ranjith-times :
I can understand your despair and thats why you are targetting me now. Anyway I am not reluctant to say sorry if I hurt you and I do not find enjoyment in hurting others. Atleast you should be tolerant enough & see, that you are the one advising others to be tolerant if hurt.
well done Mr Rahul...M F Hussain must be punished for this.I m with u Rahul
ayyappadas:
Nobody will find it obscene when it mentions the child in you....
"as a little kid, the little me and the whole of my unclad body must have longed for my mother's breast for warmth and security. I was more than food."?
They are wonderful lovely words.....Please do not try to defend Hussain citing such an example. Hussain knows what he is doing,and he does it deliberately. Nothing can defend his dirty mind in the depiction of Bharat Mata in nude and his own mother well-clad
Mr. Anuj Nair,
I try not to drag different issues (which have different dimensions)in when talking about one. We were not discussing the merit of Tharoor too. Were we? Let Tharoor be X, Y or Z, I am only concerned about the issue he raised- his arguments. Personally I do not like religiously following people or opinions as if "word of GOD". For that matter I am not religious or by religious standard a believer too. (Well, as per history-not mythology- Ayyappa or Sasthav, was Buddha, whom you can call an agnost(ie he was non theist). So since I am named after him, I should keep some of that legacy.. :) )
On the same note, why drag in CPI/any organisation for that matter or Marx/Lenin. If your question is the limit of freedom of expression, let me also point out that the paintings you showed as per the best of my knowledge was not from any exhibition. It was Hussain's personal collection. And if somebody gets its photos and goes for a campaign, I really feel it is a part of a foul play. M. F. Hussain,aptly called as "India's Piccasso", have never denigrated Indian cultural ethos in the ninty years of his existence. He in fact has admitted that much of his art (of which these painting form less than 1%) was inspired by Indian idols and mythology. So why abuse and do this "character assasination"?
M. F. Hussain is not presented award for those few paintings you showcased but for many hundreds of work which as earned him the repute. Therefore, how could he become not eligible for the Ravi Verma award, even if a few paintings of his are subjects of debate?
Nikos Kazathzakis wrote "The Last Temptation", which I consider as a classic par excellence. He was denied Nobel prize for the sole reason of Vatican's blacklist. I am his great fan. Many Christians I know too are his hardcore fans. Martin Scorcese was denied Oscar till recently because he directed "The Last Temptation". So is the case with M.T.'s "Randamoozham" (where Kunti is equated to a prostitute). I would standby Rushdie's right to express himself, you are not forced to buy his book and he is not putting up posters. I am affirmative about "Taslima's" works. I have read them and found them depicting a reality to its starkness and not waging a mudsling campaign against beliefs.
Micheal Angelo's "David" is a nude sculpture, perfect to its anotamical details. Jews never threw stones at him.
The boundary of freedom of expression, if it need to have, is the intention. This thin red line is synonymous to the one segregating art and pornography. Both uses nudity and even the act of sex at times, but both convey different meanings. As long as the intended meaning of M. F. Hussain's paintings were never to "abuse" Hindu traditions, he stands with the right. Also because he used icons of our national tradition. Why should I care if he would be spared by Taliban or not, if he paints an Islamic idol? If he is not spared, does it mean that I too should behave like them?
Also if you are unaware nudity became a sin in Indian tradition after the imposition of victorian morals during the European conquest. You can check out history if you want. We will have to dwell more deep to even define what is Indian. It reminds me of this article by Arundhati Roy- How deep shall we dig?
http://www.thehindu.com/2004/04/25/stories/2004042500041600.htm
And lastly, well if my words conveyed some meaning which is not unacceptable to you or may be even something appreciable, without knowing what Hussain intended how could you judge him. Please be aware that an art is that enigma which will talk to you only when you ponder to its depths .....
NUDITY alone here is not the problem....TILL THIS DATE I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY BODY 'BROAD MINDED' about his own MOTHER, SISTER, WIFE and DAUGHTER. NOBODY IS" LIBERAL " ABOUT HIS OWN FAMILY AND BELIEFS..
I CHALLENGE ANY OF the people WHO SUPPORT HUSSAIN ....TO BE LIBERAL AND BROAD MINDED ABOUT THEIR OWN FAMILY.....i am sorry to use provocative language... I CHALLENGE THEIR SPINE...IF YOU HAVE SPINE...take the CHALLENGE
C H A L L E N G E
I (with immense personal apologies to their family ) CHALLENGE 1) Renjith 2) AYYAPPADAS 3) SHILPA 4) ANY OTHER LIBERAL VADI.....COME ON...SHOW YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND ARTISTIC HONESTY... SHOW ARTISTIC FREEDOM ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS AND DEAR ONE
I COULD HAVE BEEN MORE "OPEN" in writing the ABOVE QUESTION. BUT I RESPECT MOTHERHOOD, FAMILY.....
DONT TRY TO BE PSEUDO-INTELLECTUALS..SHOW YOUR S P I N E
I PERSONALLY DARE...SHOW YOUR SPINE
Mr. Rahul,
I know exactly what a provocation means and where you are heading too.
Now, nudity is not the issue here, I agree, but the intentions are. Let me say that, my expression is not as subtle, deep and mad (in the realm of art its madness is also a measure of its passion). Therefore, I have not reached that maturity of an artist or writer to describe nudity/sex, be it own people or others. Once I reach, I will write the way I feel like, with not intention to personally hurt others and if I am convinced that such an expression alone will convey what I need to convey. Call it my immaturity. But does mean I shouldn't be tolerant (if nothing)to Hussain, without even trying to understand what he wanted to depict?
You have not answered any questions I raised and throwing an open challenge (which is far off the mark from the point)is no big deal.
1)What about other great works of Hussain? Why should he be denied because he painted a "debatable" picture?
2) If Hussain painted "India" and Hindu idols nude, you should prosecute Kalidasa. Ban his work "Raghuvamsam" and stop calling him a "maha kavi". Or do you mean to agree that "Hindu practisers" can do it but not Hussain? In that case I must argue that none of these are strictly a "religious" legacy alone, but they are more a cultural legacy and so you em or Hussain has the same right.
3) Would you demolish the sexual postures in the Khajuraho temple.
4) If you want to know if artists would even write about nudity of their own family members, read Goethe. Germans consider him as their greatest poet and literary figure.
I am asking you to emulate Germans. All I am arguing is that your argument fails miserably in logic.
AYYAPPADAS....TAKE THE CHALLENGE...WHY ARE YOU NOT TAKING IT UP...I DARE YOU..TAKE IT UP...I COULD HAVE USED VULGAR LANGUAGE..BUT I WILL NOT...BECAUSE I KNOW EVEN YOUR FATHER,MOTHER, SISTER and FAMILY will AGREE with PROTESTING M.F.HUSSAIN..ASK THEM and BE SINCERE. FORGET GOETHE...BE THE GOETHE OF INDIA, AYYAPPADAS..SEE THERE IS A POINT..DONT LET WE PEOPLE TAKE ARMS AND WEAPONS..WE believe in TOLERANCE NOT IMPOTENCY...
http://www.shashitharoor.com/articles/toi/picasso.php
AND 1) KHAJURAHO...PLEASE KNOW BEFORE COMMENTING. 1st point..KHAJURAHO depitcs a philosophy called TANTRA..which says "from bhoga to YOGA", from "sexuality to spirituality"..from world to God..
2nd Point..only 10% of total paintings are erotic, which too says YOU HAVE TO LEAVE SEX BEHIND to ENTER SPIRITUALITY..THAT is the reason why no PAITINGS are near the "sree kovil"
3rd point..HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THERE? THATS why these misunderstanding
4th. FOR ARGUMENT SAKE..lets us agree KHajuraho...THEN CAN WE GO THEIR NUDE TODAY AND HAVE SEX in front of that temple. IT SHOULD BE OK FOR YOU, because the temple is KHAJURAHO...will you agree...
DONT RAISE VARATTU VADAM..
5th WILL THE HUMAN BEING IN YOU ALLOW OTHER ARISTS TO DRAW AND ENJOY YOUR "DEAR ONES" PICTURES SAYING "a thing of beauty is joy forver " I CHALLENGE YOU. I DARE YOU...DONT BE PSEUDO INTELLECTUAL AND PSEDU LIBERAL...for NO ONE IS LIBERAL ABOUT HIS OWN MOTHER,SISTER,WIFE & DAUGHTER ... ?
(iam extremely sorry to use provocative language, BUT NONE WILL BE SPARED WHO INSULTS MY NATION AND HERITAGE, who ever he is)
SASI THAROOR...SO what? Is he the final authority of my mother land, it's ethics and culture... I respect his comments, but not his views on HUSSAIN...IF YOU HAVE SPINE, ANSWER my QUESTION..
COME ON AYYAPPADAS....ANSWER...if you have...THE GREATEST THREAT MY MOTHER LAND FACES IS not from lack of intellectual BUT FROM ABUNDANCE OF PSEUDO-INTELLECTUALS, SLAVES OF THE WEST AND ANTI NATIONAL LIBERALS.
A debate ends when the tone is a monotonous slogn shouting. May be you are only trined for that. I have no issues with that.
It was my fault that I assumed too much about people's brainware. Mia Culpa.
In fact an information from a friend from the book "Shiva" by Wendi Doniger. It has 18th century tribal paintings of Lord Shiva trying to seduce the wives of various sages.
So shall we say, "Down with the adulterous Shiva! Death to Lord Shiva"
Now, I don't answer senseless rantings. This is your webspace, do what you like with it. I won't wage a war against that. But just reminding you that you miserably failed in answering the questions raised and is shouting out of your adrinaline, the issues which are off the mark; also taking the unwarrented assumption that people have only your thoughts to be minded about.
SIR, YOU ARE CLEVER...VERY CLEVER...I UNDERSTAND..I ESTIMATED you rightly...See arante ammaku branthu pidichal ennum kanan rasamanu..Swantham ammakanenkile Pollu...YES MY NATION, MY HERITAGE IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL 'THING' for me..I HAVE PRIDE IN SAYIN THAT IT IS AN EMOTIONAL ISSUE, IT IS AN ADRENALINE RUSH...SHOULD THAT SIVA'S PICTURES be PROMOTED AND DISPLAYED ALL OVER...DONT JUSTIFY UN NECESSARILY...OUR NATION belives, HAS TRAINED US in TOLERANCE..LET OUR PATIENCE NOT BE MISTAKEN AS IMPOTENCE..LET OUR TOLERANCE NOT BE MISTAKEN US LACK OF SELF-RESPECT... and please do ask any one in your family...AND SEE WHO THEY SUPPORT YOU OR ME ? I CHALLENGE
M Y D E A R I N D I A N S
MY DEAR FRIENDS...SEE THE ABOVE ARGUMENTS AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELF...WHICH IS RIGHT, WHO IS RIGHT, WHO IS ESCAPING? WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO HUSSAIN ?
Khajuraho is more than the information from your Hindujagruti sites. Please do not cut copy and paste things. I have read more authetic things about that from "historians". Anyway that is not part of the debate. Also Hussain did not strip infront of you. Neither did he made you or anybody. He painted an art (and that too as his personal collection). Who is affected? The sculptures of Khajuharo made that more explicitely and you interpret it as leaving sexuality. Well, then did you ask Hussain what he meant?
If I apply the same 10% logic. If only 1% of Hussain's paintings form this "debatable" part, how could you accuse him of pervertion???
Again Kalidasa? What to do with him?
Who gave you the right to define "what India is" and "what Indian culture is"?
If any of my reltives do not personally find it offensive to paint their nude poster, I won't be the one to jail them for it. Yes, if you ask how would I react if you paint a ficticious idol I admire, nude, I would ask what you meant by it. If you are convincing enough and your art good, I'll adore you. Or else I'll ignore it- now that is something every naive human being can do.
I stop here for I have put my points and no discussion is on but only sychophancy. I have better things to do.
Last but not the least dear, there is a sloka by Kalidasa (find out the meaning yourself)
"Arasikeeshu kavithva niveedhanam
Shirassi maalikha, maalikha, maalika"
Perhaps he meant about Hussain too, while he wrote this .....
TAKE CARE AYYAPPADAS...YOU ONLY ANSWERED ABOUT THE IDOL...BUT WHAT ABOUT UR FAMILY...ALSO ASK THEM..UR FAMILY MEMBERS WILL TELL YOU "I AM RIGHT"...WHEN ONE IS ANSWERLESS, IT IS NATURAL TO RUN AWAY AND BE SILENT...I CHALLENGE YOU IN ANY PUBLIC DEBATE..ANY PUBLIC SPACE...MY NUMBER IS 98468-15555. I CHALLENGE YOU..ANY SPACE, ANY TIME of YOUR CHOICE...(and this web space is not mine, it belongs to all patriots and people who India and her heritage)
FUTURE of MY MOTHER LAND WILL TELL " I WAS RIGHT"...and I, FRIENDS, MY DEAR INDIANS, every one has THE RIGHT TO DEFEND OUR LAND..OUR CULTURE which is THE OLDEST LIVING CULTURE IN THE WORLD AND OUR HERITAGE WHICH IS EVEN LOOKED UP by the WORLD ON THE 21st CENTURY
(.MAY IT BE M.F.HUSSAIN or SO-CALLED PSEUDO PEOPLE...NONE WILL BE SPARED...LET SEPTEMBER 17 COME...) JAI HIND
I already know the meaning of it...You also try to know not only the lines, but also the context in which we wrote...Kalidasa never meant his lines for any perverted, sex-maniac like Hussain..I also know it, u also know it...DOnt Bluff...AND MY CHALLENGE IS OPEN TO YOU AND ANY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DOESNT VALUE MOTHER LAND'S HERITAGE, HER PRIDE and SELF-RESPECT..
Please be aware that you are not the authority to decide Indianness. Neither are you the measure of Patriotism (or Matriotism or whatever it is). I can at the best equate you to a version of Nazi and histtory tells you what it can do.
The last question, is also answered- If my family members find it offensive (look there is a person who speaks for themselves), I will protest. But in the case in which "bharat mata" to you is not the one I adore. I am no nationist jingoist. My love is more for the idea that India is; its diversity, its combined history (about which atleast I am more aware than you) and not just a structure and some slogns. And you have no right to dictate that it shouldn't be like that. If I find it not objectionable to depict India in the form he did, and sincerely I wouldn't like explain the artistic reasons why I felt so (for the reasons Kalidasa gave- understand the last quote), how dare you question me?
Mr. Rahul ,you have only exploded some emotional crackers. M F Hussain stands miles above you like a Himalaya. The history, if what I have learned from history is true, will forget you, but will surely remark the narrowmindedness of some jingoists.
What the French movie 'Z'.
When the late, great Mexican poet Octavio Paz wrote his final ode to our civilisation, In Light of India, he devoted an entire section to Sanskrit erotic poetry, basing himself, among other things, on the Buddhist monk Vidyakara's immortal 11th-century compilation of 1728 kavya , many of which are exquisitely profane. Are poets like Ladahachandra or Bhavakadevi, who a thousand years ago wrote verse after verse describing and praising the female breast, to be expelled from the VHP canon of ‘Bharatiya sanskriti' ? Should we tell future Octavio Pazes seeking to appreciate the attainments of our culture that the Ramayana on Doordarshan is ‘Bharatiya sanskriti ,' but a classical portrayal of the erotic longings of the gopis for Krishna is not?
I am not turning silent or running away. But as a matter of fact, I repent up on having indulged into a pointless debate. Rahul, turning personal is not a way to discuss things. I felt no offense bu some sympathy for you. My time is more precious, so you can continue with you propaganda .....
HOW IS UR TIME MORE PRECIOUS!!!.I PITY ANY ANTI-NATIONAL singing glory of TOLERANCE WHEN THE NATIONS PRIDE IS ATTACKED.. A N D AYYAPPADAS I CHALLENGE YOU FOR ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE DEBATE...I KNOW YOU WILL SAY AND ESCAPE IN NAME OF UR "PRECIOUS TIME"...!!!
IT IS ONLY BECAUSE OF SPINELESS PEOPLE LIKE YOU ...OUR NATION WAS DEFEATED BY BRITISH AND FOREIGN FORCES...
WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE THAT YOU KNOW MORE...W H O ARE YOU ???
WHO ARE YOU TO BE SO GREAT !! that you cannot be QUESTIONED ??
YES I AM NARROW MINDED, when IT COMES TO MY NATION, I AM JINGOIST WHEN IT COMES TO MY NATION AND ITS HERITAGE...AND FOR YOUR MOTHER, YOU WILL PROTEST !! RIGHT ?? GOOD..I AM HAPPY TO KNOW THAT ATLEAST YOU WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE HIMALAYAN HUSSAIN...
BUT THE NATION FOR US ALL IS LIKE MY MOTHER, SITA MATHA is the like the MOTHER in our precious heritage..
AND I, my dear INDIANS will PROTEST WHETHER IT IS YOUR MOTHER, OUR MOTHER, SITA MATHA, or BHARAT MATHA...
THATs what we are trained for, thats our national pride and self-
respect...
and for you, not only the history and future, even present will forget you, i hope it forgives you too
AND THE CHALLENGE IS STILL OPEN TO ALL SPINELESS, PSEUDOists...I DARE..and IF U DARE..take the C H A L L E N G E
many indian temples display erotic sculptures. Erotica occupied a sacred position in Indus civilization , like many other european/greek civilizations. One of the 5 Ms of Tantrik worship is Maithuna. But does it give any license for anyone to paint Hindu deities in such a way , as done by Hussain ? certainly not.
Here what we should clearly note is that when Hindu religious symbols are misused, the arguments are attired in the veil of freedom of expression / artistic freedom. But , such attempts of misuse of any other religion is heavily attacked as "hurting religious sentiments". this is clear bigotry. If MFH respected the civilization, he should not have attempted with deities - but nobody criticises his erotoc experimentation with any other representatives. Hussains attempts should be criticised. But Mr.Rahul , focus your energies about how to democratically counter such sinister attempts by artist crooks - why some one in India did not try for PILs with Courts ?
WE really have to see the stand taken by the so called intellectuals of our society. They all defend people like MFH. that's the pity. This is not a right position to be taken in a secularist society.
- infinion
my dear INDIANS, my brothers and sisters....THESE people are the shame of a land, and threat to a culture and a civilization...FOR THEIR TOLERANCE IS IMPOTENCY..ours is not...SILENCE IS GOLDEN, BUT NOT ALWAYS..MANY A TIMES IT BECOMES A S I N... A NO SINNER SHALL BE SPARED. J A I H I N D
i forgot to add in between my last comment - erotica in religious symbols.
discussions a re getting hotter . Good.
the beej mantra of Buddists - om mani padme huum. MANI PADME - can some one visualise the meaning ? - jewel in lotus - man's thing in woman's.
the point is - does it empower anyone to manipulate in their works - a clear NO.
Ayyappadas - i do not know who you are . but don't you agree , that in a plural society , one should excercise moderation not to denigrate religious symbols ? that too of another religion ? Don't you understand that depicting a female breast and that of a deity are two different issues.
Rahul - Personal attacks should be taboo in such discussions. Attack with your brain not with heart.
masalama
- infinion
@Rahul,
Read again-Please be aware that you are not the authority to decide Indianness. Neither are you the measure of Patriotism (or Matriotism or whatever it is). I can at the best equate you to a version of Nazi and histtory tells you what it can do.
It doesn't speak anything about how great or lesser great I am. Certainly, I will not surrender my concept of nation, nationality and right to remain Indian, up to your (or people like your's) kind, whatever the pros and cons are.
@infinion
Erotic literature was used to describe "Parvati", by none other than Kalidasa. It is a beautiful poem and considered as a master piece. Why didn't the great pandits of that time oppose him? And even further more.
There is another sloka about Saraswathi-
"Sangeethamabhi saahithyam,
Saraswathyaana sthanadwayam.
Eekamaapaada madhuram,
Anyathaaloochanaamrudham."
Again this sloka is not about erotica, but the word, "breasts of Saraswathi" appears. I compared and contrasted the paintings in similar light. What you see is nude human forms of dieties (since the medium of a painter is his sketches), but are you sure that the painter used it to "abuse" the culture or its dieties, considering the history of this painter. This is where more than sensitivity the sensibility should occur to people.
And I had asked this question before, when did you think that Indian culture became a monolithic victorian moral code. It was with the coming of Mughals and more predominantly after the Eurpeans. When you claim to defend that 'age old' Indian culture, how could you be following the same rotten victorian morality codes, which even the Europe has thrown away?
All the way, you were accusing "pseudo-intellectuals" for all the worse that has happened to our nation. Well, I claim myself to be no intellectual, but unlike many, I have ventured to learn the history and culture of my nation from various sources and that has added to my wonder regarding the "idea of India". This helps me to think deeper than jumping into conclusions and indulging into acts of vandalism. If that is a pseudo-intellectualism, I am proud of it. I definitely wouldn't like to be something that you people "proclaim how an Indian ought to be".
Ayyappadas - these people who shout slogans cannot argue with you logically. If you question their fanaticism and militancy - you will be bestowed the honorable title of a "pseudo-secularist". These are hypocrites whose blood will boil 500 degrees when they talk about Islamic extremists, yet they themselves are ready to threaten others, issue fatwas threatening to kill/deport others etc.
As I pointed out earlier, mixing patriotism with religious chauvinism is a convenient way to hide their bigotry. This is not too accidental - this is a clever way(atleast they think so).
Another interesting thing - the flirtation with Hindu militancy by some "good Samaritans". Well, people from one religion supporting another is not uncommon in India, that is the beauty of a secular country. We see Shabana Asmi standing up for the dignity of Hindus and Mahesh Bhatt raising his voice against Islamophobia. But some "kunhaadukal" boiling their blood for Sanghparivar causes really amuses me. But I know their intention well as I have first hand experience with one such colleague of mine, but I don't want to go into the details of that now as it is not relevant for this topic. But if they think that they are that patriotic, they may look into the history 60 years back and ask - despite lack of modern education and relative backwardness, why Muslims can point out many freedom fighters whereas despite having access to better education and more money, why they cannot look back into history and say - well, we are patriots because people from our community fought feverishly against British and French.
IF ANY ONE OF YOU ZEN or AYYAPADAS HAS SPINE...ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE OF A DEBATE ...YOU COWARDS
and I Totally agree with you, INFINION. I had the adrenaline rush, seeing these pseudos...i will restrain.
QUESTIONS
1. HAS any one ever painted SITA matha near the "sexual organ" of ravana ?
2. Has any one ever painted Sita matha having sexual feelings to Hanuman ?
3. The question here is not about nudity? about the bad intentions
Delhi High court, Justice Kapoor in his verdict explicitly said "Hussain is painting with malicious intentions" (check the net) ...Is it right?
4. I respect christian, muslim religions. We all respect all religions... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1428455.cms
See the above,a true MUSLIM complaints about Hussain. Thats India..Ilyas Khan Pathan is a true Indian and Muslim...Not Pseudos like Zen and Ayyappadas
5) IAM EXTREMELY SORRY TO WRITE THIS...(may god forgive me)
BUT I request ZEN and AYYAPPADAS to atleast protest if some one paints their mother, sister, and wife nude and in sexual position.
May be you will justify that too in name of "himalayan hussain" and being broad minded.
BUT TELL US...We true Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Human beings with a true mind will protest.
Thats true India, true ethics of a diverse culture. That's Bharatiyata
SEE MY DEAR FRIENDS....NEITHER ZEN OR AYYAPPADAS will ACCEPT CHALLENGE OF A DEBATE..for they know their weak ideas will be exposed. Zen and Ayyapadas atleast be honest to yourself.
I know this would be of no use. Still ....
"It is apparent that Husain has powerfully reconfigured an epical or mythic matter that the comfort and solace seeking middle-class mind had reduced to safe pietism. If my speculation about the painting is even partly valid, we have to assume that Husain finds little in the complexities of contemporary life to which the Indian epics cannot respond fully. Husain makes equally powerful use of Ramayana as well. In this case he focuses on the much-valorized figure of Hanuman, the monkey-god who is immortalized in Indian popular mind because of his unswerving loyalty to the epic’s hero and heroine, Rama (another incarnation of Vishnu) and his wife Sita. While religious use of epic material is characterized by blind faith and sentimental adulation--we discovered an image of the venerated deity in Sir Hukamchand’s room--the treatment of characters in epic literature is far more ambivalent. In addition, Husain uses this material to show how an Indian artist working on the Indian soil is not deprived of modern themes or issues because virtually every such matter is readily available within a world-nation like India and within its pre-colonial traditions.
Hanuman V
Fig. 9 Hanuman V
In the "Hanuman" series we encounter this selfless servant of Rama and Sita in a new light. Selflessness may be a noble virtue, but it is achieved at great cost to one’s person. In a particularly moving picture, Husain fills the entire canvas with the figure of Hanuman. He is seen sitting in a meditative position, attempting to train his noble mind on distant, impersonal and spiritual thoughts appropriate for contemplation. Husain appears to stress the point, made by several Indian philosophies, that action is not incompatible with contemplation--rather, they complement each other. While the brave and valiant Hanuman tries to concentrate on his meditation, the naked figures of Rama and Sita can be seen in the foreground. Although they occupy only a small space in the painting, they are painted in deep hues and drawn with much sensual detail that show the male figure eagerly pursuing the female. The self-absorbed couple play out their happy role in the presence of Hanuman, whose devotion and loyalty makes him entirely "invisible" to them. But Hanuman does see, although his mind wrestles against the feelings generated by the erotic scene. Husain’s Hanuman is affected by desire, by the sexual carryings on of the semi-divine lovers before him. Does he cast a desiring eye on Sita? Husain portrays exceedingly well the struggle Hanuman undergoes as he strains to look beyond the immediate surrounding and into an impossibly distant other place. The noble servant tries not to be moved by the scene in front of him in which a private act is performed before him as if he did not exist. The desire provoked in him is unlawful, and to look at the this scene of lovemaking is forbidden to him; he must, eunuch-like, behave as if he is not touched by it. His meditation is hampered, but it is the meditative mind that he most needs in order to calm his strong and confused feelings. The energetic and youthful servant has suddenly grown old, his face is tight and drawn, his whiskers have turned white.
Hanuman: The Original Superman
Fig. 10 Hanuman: The Original Superman
But when Husain turn his gaze outside of India, his Indian figures acquire a very different significance. Within the discourse of equivalence indigenous figures assume a proportion commensurate to the world they meet and subdue. We should now look at some of the painterly methods Husain adopts in order to subordinate the world (or its symbols) to India (or its symbols). In a different painting of Hanuman, Husain portrays this mythic figure as "The Original Superman." In one episode of Ramayana, doubt is expressed about Hanuman’s loyalty to Rama. To prove the extent of his devotion to his master, Hanuman rips open his chest to reveal the image of Rama and Sita engraved on his heart. Throughout Ramayana Hanuman is depicted as being incredibly strong (in one episode he lifts an entire mountain); also, being the son of the Wind god (Pavan or Vayu), he possesses the ability to fly. Husain combines these narrative elements to paint his flying strongman. The figure is posed more diagonally than vertically in the painting, suggesting that Hanuman is either in the act of taking off from the ground, or having just landed has still not come to a full stop. The head is naturalistically painted a deep brown, but the rest of Hanuman’s body is presented as if sheathed entirely in a luminous yellow-green body-suit. On his chest, painted within a diamond, are the figures of Rama and Sita. The parody of the typical Superman poster is hard to miss. Taking material from an Indian myth--which is as popular in India as is the American fictional hero in the Western world--Husain transposes the imported image on to it to declare the originary status of the Indian myth, and the derived and belated quality of the American one.
The connection Husain makes between Hanuman and Superman is entirely reasonable in another sense also. ..." - by
Shyamal Bagchee
Department of English University of Alberta.
http://www.asianart.com/articles/husain/index.html
So the moral is let people who know German comment about the greatness or shortcomings of German.... Since I don't know I abstain from commenting about those particular paintings except the "India", which I enjoyed and have found my own artististic interpretation (which I would not like to share).
Rahul, you have not answered any of my arguments.
>Why do you think that hussain should be denied the award because of a few "debatable" paintings? What about the hundreds of master pieces he has painted?
>Kalidasa did describe Parvathi in artistic erotic details. So why not ban them too? Where is the distinction?
>And as a counter if somebody's mother/sister (a woman) chooses her to be potrayed nude, then why should you oppose? Who are you to oppose her right? Are you the cultural Taliban of India? I find no difference between you both.
>India or bharat mata is a concept. Is it mandatory that I need to equate my nation to mother? German's call their's Fatherland. I can even imagine my nation as an enigma, a caring age old friend; I can imagine her to be feminine (if I choose to). I am meaning no offence to my nation. So then will I become a lesser Indian? So is the case with Hindu god's or godess'. Even the idea of personal dieties evolved from this sublime philosophy that 'the ultimate truth is too big for human imagination' and so you can imagine and worship it the way you choose to. You can even choose not to worship it.
>I specifically pointed at the statue of David by Micheal Angelo. I suppose, had you been a Jew you must have broke it. BTW, are you a degree holder in painting/an art critic to judge the quality of works of a world renowned painter? Do you think all the critics world over who have elavuated Hussain were fools or they have never seen these paintings? Do you think there won't be Hindus (practising) among those.
>To throw a challenge (and even which I responded), is a trivial thing. I can put one hundred challenges to you. But you have not come up with a single logic and rely only on rhetorics.
I have no wonder that you will fail to answer any logical question. But even that doesn't snatch your right to protest.
Unlike you I won't get offended if you call me "pseudo" or whatever. I just don't care. We live in a democrazy and everybody is entitled have opinions. But calling for action to militantly execute your opinions is against democrazy. You have the right to protest but have no right to dinigrate a person like MFH, without even trying to understand what and why he meant.
......for they know their weak ideas will be exposed. Zen and Ayyapadas atleast be honest to yourself. !!!
I wonder whose ideas are weak? Who is shouting slogans with no content and only permutations and combinations of oft used words. If you don't have the authentic knowledge regarding your own culture and national history, obviously you won't fit in a debate. So slogan shouting and personal attack suits you. But, sorry not for me, despite these provocations. If lack of historic knowledge, clear perspective regarding culture coupled with pounds of adrinaline is what you call true "intellectualism", I refrain. I am fine enough to be a "pseudo".
Rahul, You cannot expect more than this from - AyyappaDasan. He is coming from the same league who selected and elected the so called indian pikkkkas-O for the ravi varma award.
i think you remember what i said earlier, you can see the same verbal diarrhea from ayyappadasan with these sort of this expired ideas. he is a copy cat of john brittas - presenting certain combination of words in random, preaching the happenings in cuba in 14 th century, egypt in 17th century etc, and never answer for the question what we asked to him.
Here the question is very simple as rahul asked, no need of any explanation from cuba, egypt or antartica. it is india man. talk here in the context of India, in the context of giving the Ravi varma award to an abuser of the original artworks.
Here the problem is not hussains paintings or his interpretation, let him draw whatever he likes, he has the personal right, so keep it with him. But this protest is because of the same personal rights for indians, if he see somebody insulted him and illustrated his mother/motherland/religion in a way that he can never accpet.
Mr.Ayyappadaasa, you think those are very personal collection of M.F Hussian and he never shown it anywhere. OH!!!! then who is that bloody thief steal it from his home and displayed here? Rahul eswar? we are glad to hear your blah blah blahs about this ( please don't tell a BIG theief from messapotomia is responsible for this, you know in 1812 the country...., atleast we can tolerate hussain.. ).
Ayyappadasa - ari etraya enu chodichal payar anjaaazhi ennalla pareyandathu.
Here the point is :
Kerala Govt. deliberately decided to give the award to hussain, and majority of people in kerala/india think that Hussain is not eligible for that - His works are just an abuse of ravi varma's work.
Ayyappadasa, we will never protest if you give a Carl.max / mavo se thung award/nayanar award/indira gandhi award/advani award/nehru award/shahi tharur award to him. even he is nominated for the NOBEL prize we will never protest....we offer all of support for that artist.
Kerala Govt. deliberately decided to give the award to hussain, and majority of people in kerala/india think that Hussain is not eligible for that - His works are just an abuse of ravi varma's work
This exactly was the point. It is not a layman (especially who has very little concept about art), who need be the judge the worthiness. Then I guess, bollywood will bag all best film awards, all malayam films can still stay with State awards and Satyjit Ray will be an unknown. What is the basis of your claim that 'Kerala/India' thinks otherwise? It is an honourary award; not an opinion poll selection (even in that case, I don't know how far your claim could be true).
Again, I repeat none of my questions were answered and you continue your rhetorics and accusation single handedly.
"Here the question is very simple as rahul asked, no need of any explanation from cuba, egypt or antartica. it is india man. talk here in the context of india."
Who talked about Cuba or Egypt? If you can't understand English, I'll pardon you. The only foriegn incidents I mentioned was Micheal Angelo" and "Goethe" and that was to raise a point. If you haven't heard about them and still you debate claiming universality of you opinion, it is not my fault. Your ignorance is not my fault.
My friend, I talked all the way in length and breadth about India; that India and its history and culrure which perhaps you are not aware of. Perhaps, you are not familiar of Kalidasa and Raghuvamsa, the evolution of Indian historyy, culture and art. All you are able to do is do the mudsling. And agreed you are the best with it. Sure I enjoyed your honourary titles. Go on. Still I believe, if any one with a perspective about art and Indian tradition, will see the picture from the debate in this page.
You enjoy being unwittingly cynical, bashes anything which you are unaware of, unexposed to and I try to discuss things in the language suiting a discussion. My friend, that is the difference between us (the response to the language you have used).
So let me get back to my work.
Mr.Ayyappadaasa, you think those are very personal collection of M.F Hussian and he never shown it anywhere. OH!!!! then who is that bloody thief steal it from his home and displayed here? Rahul eswar? we are glad to hear your blah blah blahs about this ( please don't tell a BIG theief from messapotomia is responsible for this, you know in 1812 the country...., atleast we can tolerate hussain.. ).
When somebody visits your personal art gallery, which is a restricted zone and which is not for advertisement and then finds a picture which does not suit his/her taste, a civilised response would be that he/she reports the artist that he/she find displeasure with the work,. Nobody asked you to visit and this is not put on public display. You come inside in the pretext of a art enthusiasist.
Now, taking that as a campaign is thoroughly unethical for one reason. Another is that you have never tried to listen what the artist wanted to convey. IGNORANCE is no excuse to wage a war.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
You think you know all and you quote every Tom Dick & Harry.
You just need to know that you are nothing but a senseless feelingless self-styled intellectual who talks in parrot fashion.
If your neighbour paints your mother nude ( Hussain has not sought Sithas or Rams permission to do so) one day slips it out and say it is his personal collection it might not be of any relevance for you...but it really hurts us even if it is your mother. Even Hussain has a mother a mother we all respect. Sita is mother for Hindus, Bharat Mata is mother for all Indians and anybody depicting that mother in nude is depicting our mother in nude. If that does not bother you, I just pity your mother. If anybody abuse her, you may talk your usual parrot fashion, but we will protect her. I love my mother I will not let anyone abuse her with whatever excuse or reason. Shame on you and pity that mother who gave birth to you !
@Ayyappadasa,
A bundle of nonsenses wrapped in the name of world wide knowledge doesn't fit for justify this.
We normally ask for some "water" when we feel thirsty - not give me some "hydrogen oxide"/H20. This is how it works, according toyour justification. both are correct.
but in a comman man's view point, its only pure water. a chemist can interpret in to 2 hydrogen bonded with an oxygen.
hope that you got the point!
hoo..its so lucky to live with our an 'Art'istic view point..Enthokke sahikkendi vannene... petta thalle thuni urinju nirthi art kanikkan madikkatha Abhinava buddijeevikaley....njangalodu maappakkuka..
Mr.Ayyappadas,
Please answer me honestly .
You said :
"When somebody visits your personal art gallery, which is a restricted zone and which is not for advertisement and then finds a picture which does not suit his/her taste, a civilised response would be that he/she reports the artist that he/she find displeasure with the work,. Nobody asked you to visit and this is not put on public display. You come inside in the pretext of a art enthusiasist.
Now, taking that as a campaign is thoroughly unethical for one reason. Another is that you have never tried to listen what the artist wanted to convey. IGNORANCE is no excuse to wage a war."
HOW WOULD YOU REACT IF IT IS A NUDE PAINTING OF YOUR OWN MOTHER, THE MOTHER WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU ?
MAY BE YOU WILL ASK THE ARTIST TO EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHAT HE WANTED TO CONVEY & APPRECIATE HIS ART.
ITS SIMPLE, WE, WHOM YOU THINK ARE IGNORANT CANNOT DO THAT.
DEAR FRIENDS ..."The difference between Intellectual and Pseudo intellectual is very thin, the first one talks less and conveys more, the pseudo talks more and conveys less" ... I suddenly remembered this quote.
A Y Y A P P A D A S.
LOGICAL, PHILOSOPHIC AND INTELLECTUAL ANSWER
I ANSWERED each and every question of yours LOGICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY...I will repeat for 'intellectualy deaf' takes time to hear.
I) YOU,YOURSELF AGREED THAT PAINTINGS ARE "D E B A T A B L E"
that is a good start.
II)The interpretations are as logically invalid and intellectually shallow. Not at all deep.
III) Let me state reasons. PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY...
1) Any culture or civilization in the world is based up on corner stones called Values, ethics or core beliefs. May it be Indian, Greek or Mesopotamian.
2) The symbols are the outer expression of the inner meaning of the ethical fabric of a society.
3) The culture, ethics, heritage is conveyed to generations after generations using myths, stories, SYMBOLS and IMAGES
4) NOW WHAT IS HUSSAIN DOING.
HUSSAIN IS DISTORTING ONE OF THE GREATEST SYMBOLS, IMAGES..SITA MATA
Who was she?
A symbol, an imaged used by people 1000's of years ago to convey purity, devotion, ideal women, sacrifice and struggle. she is the epitome of woman hood, virginity, Chastity..
HUSSAIN IS PAINTING HER HAVING SEXUAL FEELINGS TO HANUMAN...the DASA OF SREE RAMA....DO you have a justification. ?
IV) The easy way to destroy a nation is by destroying its culture and the easy way to destroy culture is by destroying symbols. Thats why all people in India were sad that Babri Masjad was demolished. That is not for the building stood there. But for the symbolic value and image of it. Thats why we still say Hindus and Muslims should amicablly build some thing there.
V) When an Indian flag is burnt, we feel bad,sad and angry. We dont think that it is only a peice of coloured cloth being burnt. There is symbolic, emotional value in it. Being an artist you or being a philosophy student I too will not blindly oppose nudity...But NUDITY attributed to one's mother, motherland, Sita( as a cultural symbol), and Sita sitting on the things of a naked ravana and near his sexual organ is offensive. The problem is symbolic, emotional, intellectual and EVERY ONE KNOWS, HUSSAIN IS A GOOD ARTIST, BUT A CONTROVERY SEEKER AND PUBLICITY MONKER. THE DELHI HIGH COURT even gave the opinion that HUSSAIN IS "DELIBERATELY" DOING THIS.
THAT WAS THE LOGICAL RESPONSE..
AND AYYAPPADAS...YOU THROW 100 CHALLENEGES..I CAN EASILY COUNTER EVER ONE. I AM CONFIDENT.
T A K E THIS ONE CHALLENGE...
Dont be an intellectual hypocrite..
AND REMEMBER "liberty without responsibility is disastrous and dangerous"
Liberty is a two sided coin, the other side is responsibility.
Those who cannot see the other side, has no right over the one side.
LIBERTY should be there, RESPONSIBILITY should be there,
both has to co-exist.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
You said, "You enjoy being unwittingly cynical, bashes anything which you are unaware of, unexposed to and I try to discuss things in the language suiting a discussion. My friend, that is the difference between us (the response to the language you have used)."
We are discussing about being hurt by a moron and the Government bestowing on him an award in recognition of his works.
Why do you question the people who are hurt? If somebody abuse your mother and I try to defend the offender by questioning your mothers moral values, you wish to discuss it ?
Why should people like you twist the arms of others & question them for being hurt ?
Why hurt others? You may ask, "Why get hurt ?" You will never realise that unless you love your country & culture. Else it should happen to your mother or sister.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
You said, "This exactly was the point. It is not a layman (especially who has very little concept about art), who need be the judge the worthiness."
Who do you think should judge the worthiness and who should judge the judges worthiness ?
Nobody cares for the concept about the so-called art where ones mother is painted nude even the so-called worthiness deciding judges.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
You said, ">And as a counter if somebody's mother/sister (a woman) chooses her to be potrayed nude, then why should you oppose? Who are you to oppose her right?"
IF YOU HAVE WOMEN WILLING TO BE PORTRAYED NUDE IT'S UP TO YOU. AGAIN PLEASE BE HONEST....WILL YOU BE HAPPY & UNCONCERNED IF IT IS YOUR MOTHER OR SISTER ?
@ayyappadas,zen & party
You could have even justify the hydrabad incidents also..
Hello zen, you didn't know anything about the terror they are doing in india, right?
We would like to hear your justification on this incident.
you may have announce - there is no thing in common - Hussains art and hydrabad incidents..
The morons are ruling...watch and enjoy their generosity & passion towards your nation..
1) The meaning of the Hanuman painting is NOT what you meant or intended. It cannot be seen in isolation also. There is series of Hanuman paintings by Hussain of which the one mentioned happens to be just one. Refer to the link I put.
2) Symbols essentially are outer expressions, but when people cast symbols like uncrticisable idols, without seeking its inner meanings, society rots; looses its dynamism. I see that here.
"A symbol, an imaged used by people 1000's of years ago to convey purity, devotion, ideal women, sacrifice and struggle. she is the epitome of woman hood, virginity, Chastity.. [Wait a second and off the topic, so that is what womenhood means to you. Carry on dear, I do not belong to that league of men, who would like to define woman as a stereotype. I would consider her as an equal partner with her own virtues and vises.]
HUSSAIN IS PAINTING HER HAVING SEXUAL FEELINGS TO HANUMAN...the DASA OF SREE RAMA....DO you have a justification. ?"
I repeat the intention of the painting was not the meaning you conveyed. (link previously mentioned)
Ever read "Valmikiyude Raman" by Kuttikrishna Marar (now don't tell me that is from Antartica). It should have been a contrevertial essay today. It demolishes the whole concept of "ideal Rama" (Maryada Purushothaman) quoting Valmiki himself. I hope my point is clear. There is a purpose why some models are created. But as society matures, it need to understand why a model is created rather than clining like a monkey on to that outward symbol.
"If that does not bother you, I just pity your mother. If anybody abuse her, you may talk your usual parrot fashion, but we will protect her. I love my mother I will not let anyone abuse her with whatever excuse or reason. Shame on you and pity that mother who gave birth to you !"
Mr. while I have avoided all personal remarks, you are intentionally going ahead with this. So pity you for that. I do not need your certificate to prove my love for my mother or nation. As for my personal case, my mother knows it better and as for nation, MY NATION IS LARGER THAN THE NARROW NATIONALITY YOU PROPAGATE. The word which that suits your attitude might be "Nazism" and I'm sure you'll bring the same glory to India too. Just reminded me of the English film V for Vendeta. This one was not made in Egypt or Cuba, but it essentially is about the ideal Govt and society that you people envisage.
"The easy way to destroy a nation is by destroying its culture and the easy way to destroy culture is by destroying symbols...." -
1)Tell me who tried to destroy the nation? A ninty year old artist? Just for producing some contrevertsy?
2) So why didn't he do for eighty years of his life? Why only in this end years? Why after reaching the summit of his fame?
3) Why when he has admitted his cultural inspirations and taken pride in Indian culture? Why after he painted more than hundred wonderful works, when he painted pictures by which he wanted to convey something else, a group comes in and gives death threats without listening to him?
4) Why after he had apologised for the "saraswati painting"? Do you want his blood? None of these are his very recent paintings. If contravertsy is what he sought, why not display them in an exhibition? since more than 10 years outside India, he has never painted any more of "distasteful" paintings? How do you interpret these to the intention of an artist?
5) After all these, back to the topic, how these disqualifies the merit of an artist to be eligible for an award? Even if I admit that he did some works distasteful for others? Somebody mentioned the "10% sex" logic of Khajuraho. If that is so, whynot a "less than 1%" logic?
6) Is the court order the proof for an artists' intention? I beg to disagree. Court would upheld the ban of Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses', while I thoroughly disagree with that. Court works on rules we make and nothing else And courts are often swept by some manifested violent agitations.
"Who do you think should judge the worthiness and who should judge the judges worthiness ?" - The last one I agree is a good question which becomes highly subjective. But do you believe that you are capable of it?
"AGAIN PLEASE BE HONEST....WILL YOU BE HAPPY & UNCONCERNED IF IT IS YOUR MOTHER OR SISTER ?" - My unhapiness or hapiness was not the question (it is not part of a discussion), but it is about the right of an individual. My answer is that, since I respect an individual's right, I wouldn't sue them, or go be the typical chauvnist to lock them in a room. At best if I find it inaapropriate, I will convey the message. Again, my cultural ethos were made by my upbringing and after getting exposed to the outer world, I can no longer claim that "my culture" is the greatest ever or that it is the only way to look at an issue.
If you guys cannot argue without getting personal, what is the whole point in putting up a campaign.
"You could have even justify the hydrabad incidents also.."
Read my previous posts, I have SUPPORTED TASLIMA. So do I for Salman Rushdie or Nikos Kazaanthzakis. You need not support, and you can protest too (peacefully) but don't you think (if you think) it is naive to oppose something of which you are not a good judge of?
[I won't answer any more personal attacks. That shows your great Indian culture I suppose, even if you have no shame in doing that (you are same league of RSS/NDF). I pity you for having filled so much of this page with personal attacks alone- Bharateeya Samskriti, it might be]
Mr. Ayyapadas,
Why do you feel offended when we compare the love we have for Bharat Mata and Sita as the love you have for your mother (if you have any)
So if you feel hurt and consider it personal, it is the same feeling millions have when they consider Sita & Bharat Mata as their own mother.
Why do you fail to see that? Or is it that you are just trying to ignore their feelings just for the sake of your arguments?
You feel hurt even if somebody ask you to imagine the picture to be of your own mother, it is personal !!!! You just can't do that ! Please try to oen your eyes and try to see that the believers consider Sita and Bharat Mata as their own mother and you cannot ask them to ignore it with your reasoning & arguments.
Mr. Ayyappadas,
You said, "After all these, back to the topic, how these disqualifies the merit of an artist to be eligible for an award?"
Making ones work popular by hurting others is not the criterea for eligibility for an award.....
What merit ? Do you think all artists or painters consider his work as great ? How did you decide his works are worthy ? You consider him great just because somebody wrote that he is a great artist?
Mr. Anuj,
I am not hurt (even if that means no love according to your definition), but that was uncalled for and irrelavant. It is against the ethics of any discussion, if you are familiar with that.
I make a clear distinction between my concept and a reality. My mother is a reality and again, she is beyond how I want her to be; and my idols, beliefs etc are concepts. They emerge from my faculty to imagine and I won't blame people for being deeply involved in those. But when you impress up on people the notion of "concept=reality" you are just playing with their lives and pouring political venom. Religion as a personal issue is fine enough, but when it becomes a halucinator, is detrimental to society.
You also need to admit that there is same freedom for another to adore his/her own version of a concept which might be just opposite to yours. That is reason. And tolerance comes from that reason not the religious dogmas. I extended that to Hussain too. And you claim you cannot put up with them. That is more of your problem, right?
How can you claim that since you (or people like you) feel offended, all those who could tolerate them are frauds/morrons/pseudo? Again I don't care if you label me as one of those for you are not my judge.
Then you talked about responsibilities. What is the duty of an educated responsible citizen? To jump into conclusions just after seeing a snap about "a concept" or to study it and then conclude? So who is a patriot, the one who takes a society into emotional fervour and destroy every pillar or rationality or one who evaulates all pros and cons before deciding? And this is no war, where gut decisions should rule.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
You say,"I won't answer any more personal attacks. That shows your great Indian culture I suppose, even if you have no shame in doing that"
What a joke !!!
Nobody attacked you personally if you consider Hussain is right ! Even when I ask you to imagine how you may feel if it happens to be your own mother, you cannot tolerate it !It's personal !!! The millions who consider Sita and BharatMata as their own mother feels the same.
It's a pity that you did not even care to think about others feelings when you were adding salt to the injury with your accusations on the ones who are already hurt.
You even say it's a shame !!!
It is the Great Indian culture that we showed in not attacking you pesonally but make you realise how you will react if it is your own mother.
I repeat and I wish you answer it honestly. Please give a straight answer rather than quoting from somewhere and deviate from the question.
HOW WOULD YOU REACT IF IT IS A NUDE PAINTING OF YOUR OWN MOTHER, THE MOTHER WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU ?
WILL YOU ASK THE ARTIST TO EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHAT HE WANTED TO CONVEY & APPRECIATE HIS ART. WILL YOU DEFEND HIS FREEDOM OF EXRESSION & CONSIDER IT AS A GREAT PIECE OF ART BY A GREAT ARTIST ?
ANSWER 'YES' OR 'NO'
NO MORE CLARIFICATIONS FROM YOU IF YOU CANNOT GIVE A STRAIGHT ANSWER.
I repeat and I wish you answer it honestly. Please give a straight answer rather than quoting from somewhere and deviate from the question.
HOW WOULD YOU REACT IF IT IS A NUDE PAINTING OF YOUR OWN MOTHER, THE MOTHER WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU ?
WILL YOU ASK THE ARTIST TO EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHAT HE WANTED TO CONVEY & APPRECIATE HIS ART. WILL YOU DEFEND HIS FREEDOM OF EXRESSION & CONSIDER IT AS A GREAT PIECE OF ART BY A GREAT ARTIST ?
"Making ones work popular by hurting others is not the criterea for eligibility for an award....."
Criteria of the award was artistic contribution. This is like the old rhetoric that "Nehru was a bad primeminister" since he had affairs with many women. Now, both are different issues. Judge Nehru as a primeminister and come up with arguments, not his personal life. Similarly, the contribution of this artist to painting outweighs those "debatable" ones by leaps and bounds. He is eligible by standards of art.
Now, if you are back in senses refer this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._F._Husain
It quotes "In 1966, he was awarded the prestigious Padma Shree prize by the Government of India. He has also been awarded the Padma Bhushan. In the following year, he made his first film, Through the Eyes of a Painter. It was shown at the Berlin Film Festival and won a Golden Bear.[4]
Husain went on to become the highest paid painter in India. His single canvases have fetched up to 2 million dollars at a recent Christie's auction. In recognition of his distinction, he was appointed to a term in the Rajya Sabha, the Upper House of India's parliament........ The Peabody Essex Museum (PEM) (USA, Massachusetts) showed a solo exhibition from 4th November 2006 to 3rd June 2007. It exhibited Husain’s paintings inspired by the Hindu epic, Mahabharata."
Well, I hope this is atleast 10 times more authentic than your Hindujagruti, simply because wiki is open and even you can modify if you provide the evidence.
Further .."In the 1990s some of Husain's works became controversial because of their portrayal of Hindu deities in the nude. The paintings in question were created in 1970, but did not become an issue until 1996, when they were printed inVichar Mimansa, a Hindi monthly magazine, which published them in an article headlined "M.F. Husain: A Painter or Butcher.........The controversy escalated to the extent that in 1998 Husain's house was attacked by Bajrang Dal and art works destroyed. The leadership of Shiv Sena endorsed the attack.[8] Protests against Husain also led to the closure of an exhibition in London, England..........
In February 6, 2006 issue, India Today, a national English weekly published an advertisement titled "Art For Mission Kashmir". This advertisement contains a painting of Bharatmata (Mother India) as a nude woman posed across a map of India with the names of Indian States on various parts of her body. The exhibition was organised by Nafisa Josef Ali of Action India (NGO) and Apparao Art Gallery. [17]
Hindu Janjagruti Samiti (HJS) and VHP has protested persistently against Husain displaying the painting on the websites and in an exhibition. As a result, on February 7, 2006 Husain apologised and promised to withdraw the painting from an auction.[18][19]"
Why this hue and cry after these?
Now about who judged Hussain as a great artist, the easiest way to answer is list to me the names of eminent artists/art critics who have considered him as average/ordinary?
Since you cannot read English. Here is the answer again. But what is the point in reapeating a question over and over ......
"I make a clear distinction between my concept and a reality. My mother is a reality and again, she is beyond how I want her to be; and my idols, beliefs etc are concepts. They emerge from my faculty to imagine and I won't blame people for being deeply involved in those. But when you impress up on people the notion of "concept=reality" you are just playing with their lives and pouring political venom. Religion as a personal issue is fine enough, but when it becomes a halucinator, is detrimental to society."
You seem to claim that every person should shout and react the way he/she pleases at the slightest incident of displeasure. Wow! that is a great concept. True to Bharateeya samskriti.
And buddy, please don't preach Indian culture to me. Atleast, I have tried to learn it as much as I could, all its virtues and vises, and is not that monolith "Aryan" culture that you claim.
So the answer is "Yes", if without her consent.
"No", if it is about the greatest concept/thing I admire.
And affirmative that both are different. And you people who muddle both are playing the dirty game to play with the lives and society.
Now, having answered your ultimate question, will you please show that bare minimum decency to address the issues I raised? (I don't expect you to. For you believe any person who believes in more reason, is a morron. Socrates was the first one in recorded history and was killed.)
Yes- as in I disapprove and protest.
No- as in I won't protest.
You said," Similarly, the contribution of this artist to painting outweighs those "debatable" ones by leaps and bounds. He is eligible by standards of art."
You decided his eligibility ? You decides the standards of art ?
Mr. Ayyappadas,
You are nobody to judge my english & I do not wish to prove it though.
You said," "I make a clear distinction between my concept and a reality. My mother is a reality and again, she is beyond how I want her to be; and my idols, beliefs etc are concepts. They emerge from my faculty to imagine and I won't blame people for being deeply involved in those. But when you impress up on people the notion of "concept=reality" you are just playing with their lives and pouring political venom."
WHAT IF YOUR REALITY IS DEPICTED BY AN ARTIST JUST AS A CONCEPT AND THAT TOO IN A WAY THAT HURTS YOU?
IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO TRY TO UNDERMINE RELIGION AND TRY TO PROJECT TRUE BELIEVERS OF A FAITH AS SENSELESS FOOLS
Rahul... you asked right what our family members think ???
Well... I asked my mom !! She shares the same view that I have !
Art has a different perception.
Why else would you think people sell artwork for millions, that don't make that much sense to people !
We shouldn't argue about something we don't understand...at least not make such a big issue !
I know you will reply to this with CAPITAL LETTERED slogans with JAI HIND and all. But I had to say this for the last time.
There is no need to make such a big issue...esp when its something you or many people don't understand !
And yeah...as I had said before, art schools have nude studies, where they observe a nude model and sketch. Isn't the model somebody's child, sister or brother. No body seems to be offended there !!
Its just perception....its the diff b/w how we interpret things and how differently art has to interpreted!
Please try to understand before going to challenge everybody..and just ignoring what might be true !
Some points to ponder.
It was not me who judged,, but artists all over the world. Just use this tool called google.com
You are diviating from the topic and trying to avoid answering deeper questions.
At the outset let met tell my premises; I am against mixing imagination with reality.
1) Let, for the sake of argument, Hussain be not great person, but only a great artist. What is wrong in honouring his art/him as an artist? People, after all are shades of grey.
2) I did not find the fact that you express your protest or displeasure (through democratic channels), inappropriate. But why do the character assassination of person, honoured as a living legend by the art circle? How well do you know him as an artist or as a person?
3) i. Since you claim Ram and Sita are idols for you, why don't you sue Kuttikrishna Marar for re-interpreting Valmiki's Ram as a mere Human (and at times weak and sub human), quoting the original Sanskrit? If you are aware there are tribes in Tamilnadu who worship Ravana and consider Ram as an ordinary person. Will you anihilate them, up holding the Bharateeya Samskriti?
ii.What about M. T. Vasudeevan Nair? He reinterpreted Kunti, Bhima, Yudhistira and Aroomal Chekavar. They all are idols to many people. But the literate and civilised Kerala society appreciated him for his art. So we were wrong, isn't it?
iii. Ponder history, Sankaracharya was a Hindu religious fundamentalist who anihilated Buddhists in Kerala. If I depict this will you call me an anti-Hindu? Even swami Vivekanada had remarked this "fundamentalism" of Sankaracharya.
iv. Bamian statues were demolished by Taliban. The world protested including Muslims and so do I. But as per "orthodox" Islamic views (upheld by Taliban) any depiction or God/demi Gods are taboo and need be wiped out. So was Taliban right? And if not, is it your religious idea that tells you that it is not, or is it your human and rational sense? I am advocating nothing but that rational sense. Bamiyan statues were works of art and history sleeps there.
4) Now, some of us (rationalists, agnosts and atheists) find displeasure (and stupid) when some pasters or saints proclaim that non-believers are evil and unethical. So we have the right to protest and do the same as you do right? We live in a secular, civil (although not always) society and our constitution is not dedicated to God. But we ignore them since, we don't find it too relavant and also our premise of logic is different. And remember in India there were Carvakas (athiests during Vedic period) and Buddhism and Jainism in its earliest forms were atheistic or agnostic. We can claim a legacy too.
Now, I did not put these to show up my knowledge but to point that the issue is not as simpistic as you put it. And this again is not the question of Antartica or Cuba. When you talk about freedom of expression Vs sensitivity, there are many others' sensitivity which are involved. How much care do you give to them? Artists/rationalists/minority belivers/tribals (many of whose legands are opposite to our popular beliefs) too have a sensitivity and when an artist's intentions were not to denigrate, why only your sensitivity need be addressed.
So the bottomline is look where you stand before commenting. Indian culture is broader than what you propagate and has retained its dynamism not because of a few "jihdists" like you, but the ability of people to seek and see each others' view. And that India (if it is not dead) won't be hurt by the paintings of an old man (if at all they are distasteful). That India won't hesitate honouring an artist for his merit.
Mr. Ayyappadas,
YOU SAY YOUR MOTHER IS A REALITY AND BHARATMATA & SITA ARE CONCEPTS. WILL YOU ACCEPT AS ART A PAINTING OF YOUR MOTHER IN NUDE BY AN ARTIST WHO CLAIM IT'S JUST A CONCEPT ?
WHAT IF SOMEBODY KNOWN TO YOU PAINT JUST A NUDE FEMALE FIGURE AND GIVE A CAPTION WITH YOUR MOTHERS NAME ? THE ARTIST CAN SAY IT'S JUST A CONCEPT & WHAT YOU CALL A REALITY IS DEPICTED AS A CONCEPT BY HIM !!!
I agree with Vishak.
So to the capital letters
"WHAT IF YOUR REALITY IS DEPICTED BY AN ARTIST JUST AS A CONCEPT AND THAT TOO IN A WAY THAT HURTS YOU?"
I said my reality is well defined and is provable rather than a subjective debate. If the issue is a subjective debate, then question is different. Sita/Saraswati/Mother India are subjective while my mother is a woman who gave birth to me. As real as she is alive biologically and you can see her. To repeat, if that objective reality is denigrated and without her consent, I'll protest. So that ends that discussion.
ANSWER OUR POINTS THAN JUST CRYING MOTHER, MOTHER. SHOW SOME LOGIC AND SENSE.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
Even your answer to my question is contradictory.
What do you mean by ?
" So the answer is "Yes", if without her consent.
"No", if it is about the greatest concept/thing I admire. "
YOU THINK HUSSAIN SOUGHT THE CONSENT OF SITA OR BHARATMATA?
WHAT IS THAT GREATEST CONCEPT/THING YOU ADMIRE? NUDITY ? I ASKED ABOUT A PAINTING OF YOUR MOTHER IN NUDE. YOU WILL ADMIRE THAT CONCEPT ?
If it is a mere name I won't have to kick him![period]
Now again don't you have any more stuff than a mother anology. I have tried to put accross all other dimensions for pages and you are not ready even to consider. If you don't have stuff, I'll leave. Say it for once.
This stupid thing has been going on for a while.
Now show the courage to answer my questions. I won't post until you have not.
Mr. Ayyappadas,
Let me quote you:
"I said my reality is well defined and is provable rather than a subjective debate. If the issue is a subjective debate, then question is different. Sita/Saraswati/Mother India are subjective while my mother is a woman who gave birth to me. As real as she is alive biologically and you can see her. To repeat, if that objective reality is denigrated and without her consent, I'll protest. So that ends that discussion.
IF YOU BELIEVE YOUR MOTHER IS ALIVE AND I BELIEVE SHE IS DEAD, YOU WON'T MIND ME PAINTING HER IN NUDE? IT MIGHT BE A REALITY FOR YOU THAT I DO NOT CARE TO ACCEPT AS YOU DO IN THE CASE OF SITA & BHARATMATA.
OK,FROM WHAT YOU SAY,WILL YOU STILL PROTEST IF SOMEBODY PAINT HER IN NUDE AFTER HER DEATH, OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT HER CONSENT, (WHICH IS NOT POSSIBLE).
YOU MAY BELIEVE SITA & BHARATMATA ARE NOT REALITIES & NOT LIVING, BUT PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE VERY MUCH ALIVE AND SENTIMENTALY ATTACHED TO MILLIONS .
DEAR FRIENDS,
MR.AYYAPPADAS ADMITS:
"To repeat, if that objective reality is denigrated and without her consent, I'll protest. So that ends that discussion."
THE MILLIONS WHO PROTEST HOLD SITA & BHARATMATA SO DEAR AND CLOSE TO THEIR HEART LIKE THEIR OWN MOTHER.
This is really going nowhere.
People are putting various points for proving their point...and you all keep on shouting about mother and sister.... is that all you are thinking about ???
So then it shows....you are not trying to think what all other possibilities are there...what COULD be the real reason...what art is...I know its not easy...thats why I am not protesting against something I don't know and don't understand properly... you are just focused on one thing.... hate him and his art...and use the mother analogy !!!
Anuj.
I dare you show some guts to answer my questions too.Or else I'll assume that you have no answers. If your shallow imagination can see only a mother anology, I can't help. Also, refer dictionary for the word "objective" reality. Close to the heart and objective reality are two distinct things.
You cannot protest a concept (a subjective reality) when other person like to interpret it his/her way. But you have right to sue when it is objective. That is the basic idea of law. Jews can't claim they want their promised land back because it is so important to them and they treasure it by heart; Ram bhaktas can't claim setting up the temple in Ayodhya because they believe so. But I'll sue you if you interefere with my property and put a hoarding in the town claiming it is yours. Also, (after the countless times) if my mother protest, since she is a living objective reality and she has the first right over her she (for me for her) will go legally, and when she is no more, I being the son has a moral right over her, I can legally sue the concerned. Is this logic too difficult to understand?
Do not beat arround the bush. ADMIT, THAT YOU HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THE OTHER DIMENSIONS AND CAN'T COMMENT I'LL QUIT.
And since I can read quite well, only emphatic letters need be put in caps.
Dear Rahul,
The following are few more ares where you can gather public opinion:
Following is from Ashtapadi, which is being recited in front of sreekovil of temples with the accompaniment of edacka. How the artist describing sree krishna fondling gopies:
Gopi peena payodhara marditha chanjala kara yugalam
Following on vishnu and lakshmi (our revered gods, national heritage in trouble). Protest:
"Palazhi manga than konga punarunna kolamennullathil kanakenam"
There is a nude sculpture of Matsyakanyaka at sankumukham TVM.
Another fully nude sculpture at Malampuzha dam. Raise your voice against the artist Kanayi Kunjuraman.
Mr. Ayyappadas,
Do not try to foolishly defend what you have admitted.
You say,
"Also, (after the countless times) if my mother protest, since she is a living objective reality and she has the first right over her she (for me for her) will go legally, and when she is no more, I being the son has a moral right over her, I can legally sue the concerned. Is this logic too difficult to understand?
YOU SPEAK ABOUT MORAL RIGHT ?
THATS A JOKE !
WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT SITA & BHARAT MATA STILL LIVE AND NOBODY WORSHIPS A DEAD GOD.
THOSE WHO CONSIDER SITA & BHARAT MATA AS THEIR MOTHER FEEL THE SAME AS YOU FEEL & YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DEFEND SOMEBODY WHO OFFENDS THEM.
IS THIS LOGIC TOO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?
YOU SAID,
" And since I can read quite well, only emphatic letters need be put in caps. "
WHY SHOULD YOU INTERPRET THE CAPS I TYPE AS A SYMBOL OF SOMETHING OFFENSIVE TO YOU ? I DID NOT SAY YOU HAVE TROUBLE READING SMALL LETTERS. YOU TALK ABOUT ARTISTS CONCEPTS & LAYMANS INTERPRETATIONS !!!
Mr. Rajan,
You opined, " There is a nude sculpture of Matsyakanyaka at sankumukham TVM.
Another fully nude sculpture at Malampuzha dam. Raise your voice against the artist Kanayi Kunjuraman".
..............................
Those two do not hurt anybodys sentiments because he has named it Jalakanyaka & Yakshi. You would have been the first to protest it if Kanayi Kunjiraman knows your family & he deliberately named it after some female member of your family . The logic Ayyappadas is trying to portray ! He will sue the person who depicts his mother in nude !!! He forgets an artists visions, freedom, personal collection & all the reasons he was putting forth to defend Hussain !!!
Anuj,
We are not getting anywhere. Either you have some trouble in interpretting English or you have nothing else to say about what I raised.
I have answered all that you asked. Be decent atleast a few times in life; atleast in paper or admit you cannot. And there is no contradiction if you can read and understand a statement good enough.
I can give you valid proof regarding somebody being alive or not. A proof which no court will refuse. Now, that proof is my right and is based on an objective reality. I won't ask you to produce proof for mythological character, but if Ram is GOD for a majority and a weak human for minority and we no have no objective evidence for a Ram, it is concept. I am not calling for denigrating such a concept, but you certainly cannot object somebody interpretting it differently.
Why are you still centering around just one word mother? Any other idea, just for a break. I am getting bored answering the same point again and again. And any sensible person reading it will find this monotonous.
I have no problem with caps, but I find it awkward. Now, if you didnot mean it to be emphatic and that is your style, fine enough. I have no issues.
NOW I DARE YOU TO ANSWER THOSE 6-7 POINTS I RAISED IN THIS THREAD.
Atleast, let us give a break to mother for a while. And don't interpret it as being hurt/uneasy, but it is just that I'm getting sick of answering the same thing again. I must conclude that you have no guts to adress any other aspect of this issue.
And one more thing Anuj.
About deities- You try to ask this question and seek an answer; when Geeta Govindham, Raghuvamsam and many other Indian poems depicts erotic details of deities and they were worshipped, how did we became so narrow minded, construed and "koopa mandooka budhikal" regarding this "morality" (as in sadaachaaram)? More than two thousand years before there were sects who rejected Vedas and Brahminism, still some of their major proponents were widely respected among common people and now all of you are supporting and warring for that monolithic structure of definitions (Brahmistic Hindu tradition) and interpreting that as "Indian Culture". You wrote about culture, are you really sure that which you raise voice is not antagonostic to Indian culture?
I suggest a good knowledge of history, is required and is good, before you use a word like culture and tradition. If you do that you might be surprised that all those which you claim as tradition are wastes from a past, while the actual tradition (whatever is known) is much wider broader and liberal (even if you don't like that word).
@Ayyappadasa,
I know FOR whom you are standing here for.
All of your arguments and justification becomes void in the context of the feelings towards Bharatmata or sita and the beliefs of millions of indians. they consider these idols as their personal( as you consider your mother to your personal) it will hurt them. it doesnt matter whether hussain did it in his 20's or 90's.
if he is out of his senses( in 90's it may happen), consult a good doctor, instead of giving such awards.
The group which ayyappadas belongs to ( the communist govt of kerala) deliberately decided this award.then there is no wonder why ayyappadasan and party is blindly supporting them with their verbal diarrhea's
Any person who consider india as his motherland, and if he respecting it, or loving it will protest....
...what hussain did is called the cultural terrorism. other forms you had seen is in hydrabad - thats another form of it.
ah ayyappadasan and party doesnt replied to my previous posts. those are my humble questions...
@Ayyappadas, zen and all others
I'VE ONLY ONE THING TO SAY...
Solutions for complex problems are always a simple solution...
That is ....
"Never do anything to others that you don't like for yourself"
- and thanks to all, anyway it was a very thought provoking subject, lets forget that for sometime, and wishing you all a happy & prosperous onam.
THE GOLDEN RULE OF ETHICS
Never do anything to others that you don't like for yourself
ALL dear friends. remember this golden words.
AND OUR SOME 'liberal' friends doesnt know the meaning of what they say. MAY GOD FORGIVE THEM 'FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY ARE TALKING"
1) Ayyappadas ji...you are cleverly bluffing,i am sorry to say that.
2) YOU DONT KNOW WHO SHANKARACHARYA is...I KNOW being a person who is a Philosophy post-graduate and as a person who wrote 3 books on philosophy I know who he is. Dont voice out your ignorance too loud. Now lets come to the point
3) Dear Rajan, Shankaracharta, Visakh...the problem is of not nudity. The problem is of 'limits of liberty'. How far is the line?
Is their any Line?
4) Let us go into MEANINGFUL DISCUSSON
5) DOES ANY ONE THINK "LIBERTY" or "FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS ABSOLUTE AND INFINITE" ?
answer this and we will continue.
I DARE CHALLENGE ANY PERSON WITH SPINE for an OPEN PUBLIC DEBATE . my number is 98468-15555. DARE IF ANY ONE IS THERE.
AND ASNWER THE ALL IMPORTANT QUESTION IN THE NEW WORLD, where SENSIBILITIES CLASH IN A GLOBAL VILLAGE.. IS "FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ABSOLUTE AND UNLIMITED"???????
@james
"You could have even justify the hydrabad incidents also..
Hello zen, you didn't know anything about the terror they are doing in india, right?
We would like to hear your justification on this incident."
Hahaha..when did I justify terrorism? sorry to say this - either you don't have enough command over English to understand what I wrote in simple English or you seems to suffer from serious mental inconsistency which make it difficult for you to understand what another person has written and understand the meaning of it. I have only condemned any type of violence whether it was from Hindus or Muslims. I have made it quite clear that violent protests by some fanatics against Danish cartoons are not OK. Are you ready to do the same regarding militants who protest violently against Hussein.?
But this reiterates another point - more than a genuine love for the well being of Hindus, you are more guided by bigotry towards Muslims, which you made abundantly clear by making blatant accusations against community(which was completely unrelated to cartoons anyway).
Now you want to use some cartoons which were drawn 25 years ago by a now 90 year old non practicing Muslim, to make a point against his community as a whole by linking it with a bomb blast which happened just 2 days ago, which is probably carried out by terrorists who are not endorsed by MF Hussein and Muslim community in general.
"
Solutions for complex problems are always a simple solution...
That is ....
"Never do anything to others that you don't like for yourself" "
you did not give a rational response to any of my counter- arguments. You were not interested or capable of engaging in a meaningful debate, discussing the merits of MF Hussein's paintings or pros and cons of giving him an award. Instead it was just the usual rhetoric and also blatant accusations which are no way related to paintings or MF Hussein.
For these reasons alone, I don't think anyone will take you or your advice seriously( even though your solution for the complex problem is a cliche which is overused by any policeman)
"2) YOU DONT KNOW WHO SHANKARACHARYA is...I KNOW being a person who is a Philosophy post-graduate and as a person who wrote 3 books on philosophy I know who he is. Dont voice out your ignorance too loud. Now lets come to the point"
oh yes..Your slogan shouting and the way you carried out the debates make this abundantly clear. Actually every word was that of a philosopher ;-). I am curious to know which university gave you degree in philosophy(probably Golwalkar university ;-) ) and also whether you have managed to make any other person read the "3 books" you wrote. Anyway, thanks for the entertainment and I think your 3 books will be full of pearls of wisdom, which mankind will never come to learn of.
@Zen, You crossed all the limits and now you are personally attacking mr.rahul eswar.
ZEN, have you enough courage to take up the challenge raised by Rahul? have you enough courage??? every time he ask you something you are saying a bundle of meaningless bluffs and hiding in your shit hole. if you have enough courage or confidence in what you are saying come to the light, and take up the challenge...
By justifying and enjoying your mother's nudity, you are not better than a third rate PIMP.mind it....
Dear rahul easwar
All the above debate has opened my eyes wide and clear.
I am quite young and feel that I do not have the experience and maturity to discuss at this level but being a true hindu i would like to fully support u and all those who are with u.
I cannot tolerate any insult to my motherland or the gods of my religion, for that matter any religion.
I also would like to oppose Mr zen, Mr ayya pappa and others who are on the other side. their arguments are shameful and biased.
@shilpa, appreciating you for your comments, at least people should know what is happening around us, and we should be responsible for our family, our society and ultimately to our nation.
A person's life is moulding from our home( not just house, its HOME ). the love and respect to our family members, and the values which we are getting from our family helps us to build up the society and its culture.
people who doesn't getting these values from their own families havn't anything if somebody abuse his mother/father/siblings, the same feeling they are having towards the society and ultimately to the country.
Our family and society is built up on values, we should respect our family, values, tradition ,culture and our motherland.
We can forgive to someone if they committed a mistake, but how can we forgive if they did it intentionally and justifying it as their right?
i felt much relief when i saw your comments, we are not against anyone, but as i said earlier just respect a simple rule -
"Never do anything to others that you don't like for yourself"
thanks dear mr james for your comments and support. we youngsters would like to seek guidance from all elders. pl do not hesitate to point out our mistakes.
D E A R S H I L P A
i am definitely proud of you. Some years ago, I myself was a "liberal vadi" believing that values & ethics are not needed. But later I realised I was intellectually fooled by my own shallow arguments. AS JAMESJI pointed out, he said the right thing, Starting from Jewish Rabbi Hillel, to the great Jesus Christ and to 21st century the REALITY OF MORALITY is
"never do unto other, what you would not like them to do unto you" - the golden rule of ethics. all the true religions in the world from taoism, Islam to modern spirituality stresses on this notion.
take care dear, god bless you
AND SOME OTHER "PEOPLE" WILL TAKE TIME TO REALISE THEIR MISTAKES, WE HAVE TO BE PATIENT. GOD BLESS THEM TOO
ZEN for your information I studies in Kerala University, Presented 3 papers in national Symposiums.
My 1st book was released by O.N.V Kurup Sir (he's a communist)
2nd book, Philosophy of Education by Jiji Thompson IAS and Dr.P.M.Mathew Vellor (both incidently not hindus neither from Golwalkar University)
3rd was by Travancore Maharaja
The Philosophy of Vedanta and the first foreword was by Dr.George.K.M, I think he also didnt attend Golwalkar university
Then I was the Secretary of Youth wing of Young Mens Christian Association. (another Golwalkar SAngh)
Then We all Pray to (Vavar)Babar Swamy before entering Sabarimala. Babar Swamy another graduate from Golwalkar University..
True Indians know what secularism is...No need to teach...They have always said "Ekam sat vipra Bahuda Vadanti"
Truth is one, philosopher interpreted in many ways.
Truth is one, but lies are many, dont be a part of that
I am SAD TO SAY neither Z E N nor AYYAPADAS are even willing to show their PROFILE...VERY COURAGEOUS fellows...COngrats...IF you have spine ..Take the challenge.
My Number is 9 8 4 6 8 - 1 5 5 5
Be atelast true to yourself, your mother, your family and your nation
Rahul said: "Dear Rajan, Shankaracharta, Visakh...the problem is of not nudity. The problem is of 'limits of liberty'. How far is the line?
Is their any Line?"
If the problem is not nudity then where is the problem. Who sets the limits of liberty.
By the way Chottanikara Bhagawati is topless. You must refresh your views on our Heritage, culture....
Rahul I happened to watch last years makaravilakku live telecast anchored by you. In which you were saying “nobody knows how makaravilakku appears on ponnambalamedu”
Most of the people of kerala know (I am sure you also) how this hoax is being played on people for few decades. Visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_Jyothi
another site
http://kiranthompil.blogspot.com/2007/08/blog-post_07.html
So you did not feel hurt to fool people. I do not know this go with the heritage and high moral values of our country. There you colluded with the state government.
You mentioned the greatness of Sabrimala somewhere. That is why I am pointing out this.
I don’t think you have the courage to keep this post on your blog.
mr rajan...
how can u challenge the courage of mr rahul ? can u ever start anything of this sort which mr rahul has done i.e to openly protest against the insults by hussain towards our deities.
can u keep a hand on your heart and say " Yes I could have done this..For any noble cause"
I bet you would not..Our views are only superficial and we talk too much but act less. I salute mr Rahul Easwar..pl go ahead. I am sure we can gather 5000 comments in favour of the protest.
Society needs more of shilpas who are ready and keen to understand and follows the right path, and not like rajan, zen and ayyapadas.
Mr.Ayyappadas,
SRI.RAHUL HAS CALLED FOR A PROTEST AGAINST SOMETHING THAT HAS HURT THE FEELINGS OF MILLIONS .
IF, (BY YOUR LOGIC) YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROTEST ,WHY SHOULD YOU COME HERE TO PROTEST AGAINST THE PROTEST? TO PROVOKE & MAKE TROUBLE? YOU GOT IRRITATED OVER SOMETHING ? YOU THINK ONLY YOU GET IRRITATED? YOU THINK ONLY YOU SHOULD PROTEST AND WHAT YOU PROTEST FOR IS THE ONLY RIGHT? THE PEOPLE WHO PROTEST HERE ARE DOING IT BECAUSE THEY ARE HURT, IF HUSSAINS DEPICTION OF BHARAT MATA/SITA DOES NOT HURT YOU, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO VISIT THIS PLACE JUST TO PROTEST AGAINST THE PROTESTERS.PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE HURTING THEM MORE BY DEFENDING SOMEBODY WHO THEY THINK OFFENDED THEM. I HAVE NOT VISITED ANY BLOG OR SITE THAT PRAISES THE GOVERNMENTS DECISION(IF SOMEBODY LIKE YOU HAVE ANY SUCH) & ALSO DO NOT INTEND TO CHALLENGE THE DECISION THERE. JUST BECAUSE I CONSIDER IT IMPROPER TO VISIT A PLACE THAT VOICES SOMETHING THAT IS OF NO CONCERN FOR ME. IF IT CONCERNS YOU WHY SHOULD YOU PROTEST IF YOU CALL THE PROTESTS AGAINST HUSSAIN AS MEANINGLESS? SO WHEN YOU PROTEST YOU THINK IT'S WITH A REASON & THE OTHERS WHO PROTEST ARE DOING IT FOR NO REASON !!!!
GREAT ! IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE INTERESTED TO SEE COMMUNAL ENEMITY. NOBODY HERE IS OPPOSING THE AWARD FOR HUSSAIN BECAUSE HE IS MUSLIM. THE DAMAGE IS ALREADY DONE . WHO DID THE PAINTINGS & WHAT DID THAT SO-CALLED GREAT ARTIST OF YOUR'S GAIN? COMMUNAL HARMONY ?!!!! WHY SHOULD HE DELIBERATLEY DO IT IF HE KNOWS IT WILL HURT MILLIONS? IF HE IS WISE HE SHOULD HAVE FORESEEN COMMUNAL TENSION IF HE DOES SUCH PAINTINGS.IF HE LOVES THIS COUNTRY,RESECT OTHER RELIGIONS HE WOULD HAVE DESISTED FROM DOING SUCH WORKS OF CREATIVITY. PEOPLE LIKE YOU BLAME THE ONES WHO ARE HURT !!! WHY SHOULD SOMEBODY DO THINGS INTENTIONALLY TO HURT OTHERS? THAT'S TERRORISM, EVEN IF IT IS HINDU, MUSLIM,CHRISTIAN OR SIKH.
THAT'S IS HOW THE INCIDENT AT HYDERABAD NEEDS TO BE MENTIONED,LIKE WHAT MR.JAMES HAS DONE. WHAT DID THE DUMBOS WHO PLANTED THE BOMB GAIN BY KILLING THOSE INNOCENT PEOPLE? WHAT DID THEY GAIN ? TELL ME.... WHY DID THEY DO THAT? TELL ME....... LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN, WHAT DID HUSSAIN GAIN BY HIS CREATIVITY HURTING OTHERS? TELL ME..... HE IS NO DIFFERENT FROM THE PEOPLE WHO DID THOSE BOMBINGS, WHOEVER DID IT. I AM NOT TALKING AGAINST ANY COMMUNITY. I EQUALLY OPPOSE THE DANISH CARTOONS, THE SATANIC VERSES,LAJJA & THOSE PAINTINGS OF JESUS CHRIST IN NUDE DONE BY A ART STUDENT IN VADODARA.
YOU SAY I AM TALKING MONOTONOUS. I AM HERE TO OPPOSE THE AWARD FOR A PERSON WHO HAS HURT ME BY DEPICTING MY MOTHER IN NUDE. WHAT ELSE SHOULD I TALK HERE ? ABOUT TODAYS MOVIES? YOU HAVE ADMITTED YOU WILL PROTEST IF SOMEBODY PAINTS YOUR MOTHER IN NUDE. WHY CAN'T YOU TRY TO SEE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO PROTEST HERE CONSIDER SITA/BHARATMATA AS THEIR OWN MOTHER.THE SAME LIKE YOUR LOVE FOR YOUR MOTHER.
YOU SAID:
"I won't ask you to produce proof for mythological character, but if Ram is GOD for a majority and a weak human for minority and we no have no objective evidence for a Ram, it is concept. I am not calling for denigrating such a concept, but you certainly cannot object somebody interpretting it differently."
FOR YOU OR HUSSAIN IF RAM IS JUST A CONCEPT, WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE HAVE SOME SIMLE COMMON SENSE TO REALISE IT HURTS MILLIONS .BY WHAT YOU SAY, JUST IMAGINE PEOPLE OF ALL RELIGIONS DEPICTING THE OTHERS SACRED IMAGES IN BAD TASTE .
YOU DEFEND THAT. PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE REAL TROUBLE MONGERS, WORSE THAN THE THOSE TERRORISTS
MR.Rajan
This place is for those who protest the nude paintings. You have nothing else to justify your support for Hussain?
"@Zen, You crossed all the limits and now you are personally attacking mr.rahul eswar."
well, if anyone go through the posts of me and rahul, anyone with a bit of command of English will understand who was doing what. It was Rahul and people who support him who dragged other peoples mother, sister etc.
"ZEN, have you enough courage to take up the challenge raised by Rahul.."
yes, I have more than enough courage and confident and I have already given a befitting reply to both Rahul and you. But read - apart from chanting slogans and posting some unintelligible diatribes, rahul did not engage in a meaningful debate. Well, I am not surprised by that as I don't expect a logical reply from these people.
"By justifying and enjoying your mother's nudity, you are not better than a third rate PIMP.mind it...."
Well neither I justified nor I enjoyed my mother's nudity. I have a mother who gave birth to me and raised me. She is a fine lady and I am proud of her. You always make big noise about mother's nudity, so may be it is your nature to do this.
The second part of your abuse shows your hypocrisy again, sadly - by accusing me of attacking Rahul personally and simultaneously abusing me cheaply, you have shown how pathetic you are. But my culture prevents me from answering in the same tone. Also I don't see any response coming from you apart from the abuses, so you and your postings will be ignored from now on.
@Rahul
"ZEN for your information I studies in Kerala University, Presented 3 papers in national Symposiums..."
OK, I agree with you child, you are indeed a philosopher. So your hopeless behaviour? - may I just ask like Jagadeesh asked in a movie "oh.. acting aanalle?" ;-)
Final word from my side:
I am proud to be an Indian - because we are a democratic, secular, multilingual, multireligious country where people with different languages, religion and culture live with reasonable tolerance, learning from each other and helping each other. There are many noises here, but still the voices of moderation and democracy wins finally in our country.
H A I ZEN....dear child minded person. I understood you are only like JAGADEESH or even PAPPU in a movie. I understood your level. Thank you for informing.
1 ) DELHI HIGH COURT Judge Justice Kapoor criticised Hussain about his paintings in his judgmenent
2) Illyas Khan pathan, a true Musalman was one of the many person who complainted about Hussain.
3) ANY ONE WHO KNOWS ENGLISH CAN CHECK THE ABOVE DEBATES...SEE, OUR SHILPA UNDERSTOOD THE ESSENCE of what we are trying to convey. I PUT FORWARD THINGS L O G I C A LL Y
4) when you cannot counter that, dont blame and escape. Pseudo has and will always do that. Like Zen, or Ayyappadas.
I DARE YOU ZEN... T A K E THE CHALLENGE...Damn it...Spineless Pseduoists.. Dont even have the guts to show their profile in open. Shame on you and the good people who gave birth to such Pseudos...(with all due apologies to your good parents)
WE BELIEVE in Democratic Ways and Peaceful protests..OTHERWISE HUSSAIN WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE to DISCUSS ABOUT...We Beleive in moderate ways, not EXTREMISM...
And ALL DEAR INDIANS, DONT GET LOST IN THE ARGUMENTS..CHECK ONE THING...
HAS ZEN OR AYYAPPADAS EVER DARED TO TAKE THE CHALLENGE OF A PUBLIC DEBATE ...NO, they will never too...for they know their weak ideas will be exposed and their PSeudoism will be revealed..
But Dear brothers and Sisters, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Secularists and Atheists...Let us continue our fight for right in a good, democratic way..We will win
M A K A R A J Y O T H I
DEAR RAJAN...I am keeping this post...YOu can see it, till the blog is there.
Please dont go by mere Hearsays..This is all cheap and propoganda by IGNORANT PEOPLE. if you dont know, dont comment.
1) If there is Mal practise
WHERE is KERALA HIGH COURT not interfering? GO FILE A PUBLIC INTEREST LITIGATION ?
IS SUPREME COURT ALSO A PART OF CONSPIRACY IN SABARIMALA?
WHAT HAPPEND TO THE COMMUNIST CHIEF MINISTERS ?
WHAT HAPPEND TO A.K.ANTONY,atheist, when he was the CM?
WHY CANT ANY ONE TAKE PICTURES USING SATELLITE AND EXPOSE THE 'malpractise' ?
WAS ELECTRICITY BOARD AND DEVASOM BOARD there 75 years ago, where Makara Jyothi was still there ?
WHY did the BRITISH didnt interfere when they were ruling. Makara Jyothi is there for centuries? Were the Britishers also involved in conspiracy ?
D O N T COMMENT unless you have studied an issue .
and even the wikipedia article is tagged 'neutrality is disputed'
Religion has always had these allegations..That Christ married Mary magdalene, Christ lived in India. Prophtet Mohammed had worshipped 3 devis, Also allegations like Titanic never sank. UFO..Parakkum talikakal are there...
So many baseless allegations..only people with lesser intelligence go by that.
HAS ANY ONE EVER PAINTED SITA MATHA BAD ? N O, NEVER IN THE PAST 5000 years
HAS ANY ONE EVER PAINTED SITA MATHA having sexual feelings to Hanuman and She as a Sex Maniac ?
No never in the past 5000 years
HAS any one ever painted Hanuman enjoying the 'scenes' between Ram and Sita?
THE TEMPLE PAINTINGS HAS been PAINTED ON DEVADASIS and SALABHANJIKAS OF THAT TIME..
PLEASE DONT PREACH IGNORANCE...
And Ayyappadas said "he doesnt think Women as stereotype of purity, womenhood, chastity, virginity"
I think so...I believe WOMEN should be given a higher place and our culture has always given that.
AND no body should be allowed the paint them in BAD light...
We have laws for it, we have a value system for it, And most importantly We have proud sons of India, All Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Secularists to guard the culture and heritage...
The PSeduos will know it, COME September 17th
Ignorance is a bliss !!
Enjoy :)
Visakh...Ignorance should never be a bliss...If some one advised you so..it is only an excuse for his ignorance.
"I prefer sadness & bane given by knowledge to boon & bliss given by
ignorance "
Be a sad socrates than a happy pig - from Greek Philosophy
Because Life in itself is a search for the deeper mysteries of existance, Know thyself, for closed eyes only gives you dreams and open eyes gives you reality.
And Truth is stranger than fiction, Reality is more beautiful than fantasy...
Know Thyself...
dear rahul..
pl do not get into arguments with these fellows..these are the people who only love fingering and can do nothing else..
u r doing a great job and u will get support.
Thank you Milind ji..I believe every true Indian and even all true, Human beings who are having a conscience should be worried about degenerating Value system, over powering Materialism and consumerism and erosion of family ethics in this world.
Take care. god bless you and your family
@James
"I know FOR whom you are standing here for..." - I wonder how? By the sixth sense? If you meant "I deduced", it would have been technically correct atleast. What is the measure of a person's ideology? Do you know me personally by any chance? So no comments, up on people whose job is to jump into trivial conclusions. FYI, I am not (and neither my parents or relatives) any CPI(M) card holder. I have my views and most are inclined towards left.
"Any person who consider india as his motherland, and if he respecting it, or loving it will protest....
" - This as I understand, is an opinion and you are entitled to have yours. But in a democrazy I also am entitled to have mine. When you forget, deny that right to me and try to impose your opinion on how others need to behave, that exactly is known as fundamentalism. It exist in various form and nationalist fundamentalism is a class of it. It also reflects how shallow your concept of nation is; something which has not grown beyond a tribal definition.
" those are my humble questions.." - I wonder what it was? I replied almost line to line. It was you people who had deliberately ignored the ones I put with numbers (refer back). Now, if you still need a reply, I am ready to, provided you are not shouting that 50 post series on "mother mother...". Seriously, man, it became such a bore, when I answer yousr and you wouldn't even look at my points.
""Never do anything to others that you don't like for yourself"
That is a good point to start. Now tell me is this rule for one community or sect alone? I asked you a question, if a paster in a Church or Swami/Swamini Shri .... comes in TV and tells you that those who deny GOD/religion are evil, unethical, ...etc what not, can I apply this rule. Shouldn't I go and give a kick to him/her. Why not? (although I am not interested in it).
When Ravana is the important diety for a tribe, wouldn't they feel hurt when you proclaim Rama as maryada purushothaman and Ravan as a villian?
Now, what is the difference between these two and your case? Only thing I can think of is that, you are comparitively more in number. So is it a number game?
Next, as other people these artists too have sensibilities. Forget hussain, I have heard people (obviously who have never understood) O. V. Vijayan to be a pseudo-jada-kanjav-bhrandhan and Khasak a pseudo work. Let Vijayan be an idol to somebody and so isn't this denigrating to sensibilities too? Or if he/she responds by saying Valmiki/Veda Vyasa was a @^%&$!@@#, is there a difference between, what both say? (But fortunately, in science and literary circle, because of a prevailing liberalism, such heated words are only opinions and nobody will burn a museum.
I am awaiting your reply, before proceeding, since this is a vital point or should I saythe vital point.
When China attacked India, we all know who supported China and was against India. So dont preach Nationalism to us.
T A K E THE CHALLENGE OF A PUBLIC DEBATE...if you dare, if you have spine
Obviously the Sensibilities really apply to all.
Ravan is a person who kidnapped another person's wife.
Is he Maryada Purushottam ?
Dont play with words, because That will hide truth.
Any culture and civilization stand on some basics called values, ethics and heritage.
I repeat the question you continously escaped and will still escape
HAS ANY ONE PAINTED SITA IN THE TIGHS OF NAKED RAVANA TILL NOW
HAS ANY ONE EVER PAINTED SITA AROUSED SITTING IN THE TAIL OF HANUMAN.
"Human mind is limitless, it's imagination is deep and great, but one cannot be unmindful of the fact that, greater the freedom, higher the responsibility" _ Delhi High Court Justice, criticising Hussain
OK AYYAPPADAS...i even doubt, if it is your real name. You might even be an anti-national,
I KNOW YOU WILL NOT TAKE UP CHALLENGE FOR A PUBLIC DEBATE..OK
ATLEAST HAVE THE SPINE TO CHAT and ARGUE. (from any ID you like)
I can easily expose your weak arguments in 5 minutes. Have the spine to do atleast that.
hi rahul
i think u are dn a gr8 job...lets join hands to protest mf hussain....we r with u man..cheer up...one more thing i know u nd we had met once in tvm while performin prithvi n u gave us a party also...nice to c u yaar...take care.n cheer up to protest dat MF
@Rahul,
"YOU DONT KNOW WHO SHANKARACHARYA is...I KNOW being a person who is a Philosophy post-graduate and as a person who wrote 3 books on philosophy I know who he is..."
I should admit that my PG was not in philosophy (I am doing it in Statistical methods & Operations research), but since having been born in a world surrounded by books and discussions from childhood, there are atleast somethings I am aware of. Obviously, you can question its autheticity, but you need to do it academically and not with slogn shouting. Now the history of "Vavu Bali", Kumara Bhatta's "Shankara Digvijayam" and arguably even "Kodungallur bharanipattu" surely might have come to your notice. It was a researcher in Kerala history (whose Identity I don't want to reveal), who had discussed the "burning" of buddhabhikshus by Sankaracharya. And interestingly I found a link from the net for the same.
http://www.themronline.com/200106m12.html
This one, is from "modern rationalist", but do not just stamp it as biased and fake, without reason and proof. Let X or Y be the author, as sure as you have your bias, the author too will have.
Anyway, that was not part of larger debate. But when you can conclude that people would just bluff to make a point, I was surprised. At least, I have not learned that art so far, although none of your posts had a grain of philosphy student's calmness, argumentive strength and you never touched much of the points.
ALL of my points have covered your point..
WHY DONT YOU SHOW THE SPINE TO CHAT AND DEBATE..
AND NO NEED TO TEACH ME CALMNESS..
FOR CALMNESS IN THE HOUR OF NEED IS COWARDICE.
Anithikku mumbil pottitherikkathavan manushyanalla
And about Buddhism, it is sadly very partial. It is very true that Kerala is having a Buddhist History, even Onam has Buddhist leanings. It is true Shankara, the great Philosopher won over Buddhism and demolished them. It was by burning their old, rotten ideas and mind, not their bodies.
And he rejuvinated What Buddha preached by interpreting Vedas...
You might be knowing Shankara, His Guru's Guru Gowdapada were called Buddhists (Krytpo-Buddhists).
Both Shankara and Buddha gave new interpretations of Vedas and Upanishads
"HAS ANY ONE PAINTED SITA IN THE TIGHS OF NAKED RAVANA TILL NOW
HAS ANY ONE EVER PAINTED SITA AROUSED SITTING IN THE TAIL OF HANUMAN."
I don't know. Straight answer. I haven't heard.
So that means, the problem is SITA, RAM and HANUMAN. This rule is not applicable to "Parvati", "Vishnu", "Shiva" (who had been depicted before)etc. I don't see any point there.
Next, I repeat, I don't need your certificate for Indianness. Let me ask you- WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE MY INDIANNESS? WHO GAVE YOU THE PERMISSION TO JUDGE OTHERS'?
How far has you travelled in India? How many various cultures have you visited? Have you seen only one definition for culture and nationalism? If you could see only one monolith, I pity your senses.
Next comes the question of my identity. I appreciate your confidence to prove my arguments (I have admired RSS-wallas confidence too and have debated several times). But seriously man, since I am an M.Tech student now (and that too outside Kerala), I hardly find time to waste for you. Atleast the with so many of your posts if you could not address an issue more than its periphery, I'll better stick with the reading list I have and we will use this open space. That is not a question of spine, pure common sense.
"I KNOW YOU WILL NOT TAKE UP CHALLENGE FOR A PUBLIC DEBATE..OK"
I fear a public debate with you, because the first rule of a debate is mutual respect, arguments first and no slogn shouting. I have not seen any of these basic ethics from your side. So why trust you first of all? Then I cannot come for a public debate for very technical reasons- I am staying more than 2000km away from Kerala.
ETHU PRAYATHINTE AANU ANIYA...MARIKKOLUM
My dear child, I understand...Ethu Prayathinteya...I dont mind wasting some time for you. Enikku oru aniyan undenkil njan ente Kurachu time avanu vendi waste cheyyumarunnu..Athu pole ullo..
Aniya...Ethu oru Prayahtil thonnunna immaturity aanu..Marikkolum...
AND WHO THE HELL GAVE YOU THE PERMISSION TO SAY THAT YOU ARE AN INDIA..that same spirit allowed me to JUDGE you..
But I understand, oru prayathil angenaya..Oru prayathil Talayil pidicha ONE SIDED views maran buddimutta...Marikkolum, read more, understand more and learn more. Keep your MIND open. and understand that life is only worth living if it has values and ethics
DONT GIVE LAME EXECUSES
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO FEAR TO COME FOR ONLINE CHAT...FROM ANY FAKE ID YOU LIKE
I TELL YOU...See in one age all people fancy that freedom is the ultimate, only by age and experience one realises liberty is only second to responsibility
"Ravan is a person who kidnapped another person's wife.
Is he Maryada Purushottam ?
Dont play with words, because That will hide truth. "
Well sir, you are playing with words. According to their(tribals) version of story, Ravana never kidnapped Sita. What now? Also please comment about Kuttikrishna Marar's 'Valmikiyude Raman'- He argued Rama was mere human or subhuman, quoting Valmiki. So will you also sue him?
Next you deliberately avoided my question about "rationalists"? So you believe that rule is not applicable to us? I am awaiting answers?
"Philosophy might be difficult, but not impossible." Well, to am a student of analytical philosophy. So let us debate in the socrates way.
LET US CHAT AND DEBATE say any site you like..YOUR CHOICE...
AND RAMA WAS A HUMAN...no doubt with all problems of a HUMAN..
See All interpretations are allowed. Even though some interpretations are not good.
BUT A LINE SHOULD BE THERE.
AND I myself is a Rationalist - a person who believes that "reason is the way to enquire into knowledge" and WHO STARTED RATIONALISM...Descartes, Spinoza, Leibinitz, 3 great GOD BElievers...check the net...
Even your reason, reasoning and feelings should be respected. No doubt...
Chetta,
I don't claim knowledgable as you or experienced. But one thing I have seem from your post is this huge confidence that you have seen the world to such an extend as to make judgements... I don't know.. reminds me about the story of "Kakkaseri bhatthiri" .... I do believe you know that ....
"Aaakaaroo hraswaaaaa...!!"
"Nahi nahi, aaakaaroo dheerga; akaaroo hraswa"
Now don't post that I tried to equate my self to Kakasseri. But judging people by age alone is not what sensible people do?
And for your information, even in Tribal story, which is claimed to be Dalit and Dravidian. they say Ravan kidnapped Sita..But behaved well, It was Ravan's revenge to Rama's action to Shoorpanaka..
Dont distort...For truth is a very tough thing to find.
The enemy of truth is not falsehood, but half-truths..for it is very difficult to find truth from half-truth
Some years back, I was a "liberal vadi"...You might be shocked to know what my first book was about...i will tell you later and in person. Later I realised there is a lot of difference between clever arguments and reality..I was fooled by my own arguments for long time. I realised later than logic and life is not same. I will never say you are wrong. But I would humbly suggest think deeply, debate, and once in a while debate from the other side too (as in turn coat competitions).. for many a times intelligence ripens with age and experience.
I apologise for any remark that might have hurt you personally or rationally. But think deep...we will continue to debate, for debates are one of the many good ways to sharpen one's language, intelligence and articulation
Excuse me, you forgot Socrates to start with. And more than who started , it evolved to be bigger than who started. I am no athiest (say strong athiest) but certainly not a religious theist. And I don't need to refer net for rationalism. Descrates' proof of existence of God and its anti-thesis is where I started.
Now, you admit that even a "rationalist's" feeling need be respected. Alright, good to start with. Since my feeling is so much hurt will you blame me, if I start a website against all the people who preach against us, where some of us will comment in the same manner as you have done in this blog. And we make a "para military" wing, and attack the Churches, temples and mosques? (NOW WE WON"T DO IT IS ANOTHER ISSUE).
Next, will you consider it inappropriate if we claim that a peace prize be not given to some saint/a person like mother theresa since he/she had abused us; shown disrespect to our feelings? If you do not, I have no issue with you. You are atleast consistent.
BUT I DO CONSIDER THAT IN APPROPRIATE.
I ASK YOU WHYNOT HERE?
Well done rahul, look..they can hide their faces behind a mask of secularism, arguing without any basis.
@ayyappadasa, the world of books are not enough to teach you the truth. for that no need to read all these books or statistically analyze them. you just open your eyes to your surroundings. and some simple common sense.
still i am wondering about your 'tholikkkatti' to support to a proved nonsense with tons of empty arguments, you are well suited person for politics. ( ippolathe ellarem kadathi vettum)
now we realized that who is pretending( Abhinayam nannayittund).why you are going to sabarimala? come down, here we are discussing about the Hussain issue.
don't forget that the earnings from this same sabarimala, helps the govt to serve the great communist people and their family in kerala.
ofcourse it will be totally appropriate for you or any rationalists to say that any religious figure should not be given Nobel..IT is appropriate and true to your standard.
But even some religious peson attacks a rationalist either by weapon, or by derogatory comments, or by insult and defamation. For sure, I will humbly do as much as I can for you people, for " harmonious co-existance of different views not interfering and insulting one another is the aim of democracy and ethics."
And the Great Mother Teresa never abused any body, She tried to Matha parivartanam or Mana Parivartanam. You can intellectualy counter her, But if some one paints her in Nude or bad light. FOR SURE ALL HINDUS, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS and ALL HUMANS WITH A HEART WILL PROTEST
Mr.Ayyappadas says;
" Now, if you still need a reply, I am ready to, provided you are not shouting that 50 post series on "mother mother...". Seriously, man, it became such a bore, when I answer yousr and you wouldn't even look at my points."
WONDER WHAT ELSE ONE SHOULD TALK ABOUT IN A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO PROTEST IF THEY ARE HURT BY THE NUDE PAINTINGS OF BHARATMATA/SITA WHOM THEY CONSIDER AS THEIR OWN MOTHER !!!
YOU GET HURT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE MOTHER WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU & PEOPLE LIKE YOU FAIL TO REALISE OTHERS FEELINGS . YOU TRY TO HURT THEM MORE BY BLAMING THEM & DEFENDING THE OFFENDER. STILL,YOU HAVE ADMITTED YOU WILL PROTEST IF SOMEBODY PAINT YOUR MOTHER IN NUDE ! NOW EVEN MENTIONING YOUR MOTHER IN NUDE IRRITATES YOU & YOU STILL CLING TO YOUR DEFINITIONS OF REAL & OBJECTIVE ! WHAT YOU THINK IS REAL MIGHT BE OBJECTIVE FOR SOMEBODY ELSE AND WHAT YOU THINK IS OBJECTIVE MIGHT BE REAL FOR SOMEBODY. WHY SHOULD SOMEONE PURPOSEFULY DO SOMETHING THAT MAY HURT THE OTHER WHETHER IT IS OBJECTIVE OR REAL. EVEN WHAT YOU SEE IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT OTHERS SEE & NOBODY CAN EVEN DEFINE WHAT IS IN TRUE ESSENCE 'OBJECTIVE'. EVEN SCIENCE DECIDES NORMAL HUMAN CHARACTER & TRAITS BY STUDYING WHAT IS COMMON IN THE MAJORITY OF SUBJECTS. IF YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING AS OBJECTIVE & MILLIONS BELIEVE IT IS REAL, WHY DOES THAT BOTHER YOU ? ATLEAST,IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMONSENSE WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE DESIST FROM DOING THINGS THAT HURT OTHERS?
LET ME QUOTE YOU AGAIN:
" When you forget, deny that right to me and try to impose your opinion on how others need to behave, that exactly is known as fundamentalism. "
WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? AREN'T YOU TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR OPINION ON HOW OTHERS NEED TO BEHAVE?
WHILE PEOPLE PROTEST,YOU ARE TRYING TO UNDERMINE THEIR FEELINGS & IMPOSE YOUR OPINION ON THEM .
YOU TALK AS IF ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD ARE FOOLS WHO BELIEVE IN OBJECTIVE THINGS AND YOU ARE A SMARTIE WHO BELIEVES JUST IN THE REAL. YOU CAN'T EVEN DEFINE WHAT IS REAL !
JAMES IRWIN,THE MOONWALKER & CREW MEMBER OF APPOLLO 15 AFTER RETURNING FROM THE MOON SAID, " FELT THE POWER OF GOD AS I'D NEVER FELT IT BEFORE"
KALPANA CHAWLA TOOK WITH HER AN IDOL OF VINAYAK FOR HER MARATHON SPACE STAY.
DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE SEEN, EXPERIANCED & KNOW MORE THAN THEM ?
YOU MANY TIMES MENTIONED ABOUT KNOWLEDGE IN HISTORY.PLEASE DO NOT THINK WE ARE ALL IGNORANT ABOUT HISTORY . WHO KNOWS THE HISTORY YOU READ IS ALL TRUE? HOW CAN YOU DECIDE WHAT IS TRUE FROM THE WRITINGS? MANY THINGS IN HISTORY ARE STILL IN DEBATE & MANY THINGS WE BELIEVED TO BE TRUE IN HISTORY TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG.
SO WHAT YOU CONSIDER OBJECTIVE MAY BE REAL FOR MILLIONS & YOU ARE NOBODDY TO DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG.
I value your advise. My story is contrary to yours. I believe that I was more a conservative till 3 years back (even while staying as left leaning for beginning from my pre-degree). It was after more exposition to the world that I have turned liberal. Yes, I do debate all the time, with me and with others.
Now, I have heard a slightly different version of the Ravana story from avouched dravidian friend from Tamilnadu. I don't know its authenticity. Anyway, forget it. That was used as only as an analogy.
I have conveyed my point. Kuttikrishna Marar's Valmikiyude Raman, KAlidasa's description in Raghuvamsam,etc. innumerable places, where conservatives take reservations.
I do agree that freedom implies responsibility. But who defines the limit of freedom is again important. I am learning world cultures nowadays with the wonderful library in my institute. And that reaffirms my stand that there is no single defintion for freedom and responsibility.
Ayyapadas..I am leaving now, going with my mother for Onam celebrations.
But remember although no one can define liberty&responsibility, no one can deny that.
Nirvachikan patti illa enkilum, Nirnayikkan Patti illa enkilum,
Nishedhikan Patatha onnanu Neetiyum, Nyayavum, Naitikatayum
Swamiye Saranam Ayyappa
@James
I ignore you Mr. I don't have to prove anything before you. Please be happy with the number of titles you could award a person who wanted to discuss and be proud. [period]
@Anuj
I have answered all your questions. You haven't touched even one of mine. I respect Mr. Rahul for having shown the courtsey for discussion. Why do you still need to shout slogans at ME? If there is something else we can discuss or let us agree to disagree. What say?
@Rahul
HAppy Onam (Although unfortunately, I am too far away from my home to participate in a celebration)
@Anuj
We weren't discussing atheism Vs theism. If interested we can have it, may be in another site, since YOU have put this to be for a protest.
And those ones you finally managed to come up with, whether Kalpana Chawla or anybody else, have their right to believe in God or whatever. I have my right to believe that religion is a stupidity and God, I don't know (if you are aware what agnosticism means). None of your statements were any arguments even. Anyway, I don't suppose you know what argument and debate means. Atleast that is what I have seen for so many posts. For again the rules of a debate are 1) mutual respect, 2) arguments first and 3) no slogn shouting.
So for rule 1- From the reply to my first post itself, you were dealing with prejudices. One gentleman branded me instantly and then I was honoured with many titles. Then I got the advise that "books are worthless" and "common sense" which they alone have in abundance is what I lack. (Now don't tell me that you were trying to teach how it feels to be hurt. That is a vain logic. Also I was not hurt(why should I care for you) but realised my mistake, although very late)
For rule 2- There was hardly any other than one single anology and this problem is not as simple as you put it. I don't want to prove it before you after all these. But you can read what I was hinting at through my questions.
For rule 3- FORGET IT. Haven't seen anything but slogan shouting and personal brandings.
So I have to conclude that you have no idea about this. Therefore I prefer to quit or please come in terms. After all it was you who advocated GREAT THINGS. I only ask for level play.
a small deviation.
Ancient vedic scientists called the Himalayan lineage of Saints advocated a philosophy - abhasa vada / pratibimba vada - what we perception of the world is unreal. reality is something else.
My point is that we should conserve our energies for bigger battles . Few months back I had waged a battle in an international travel forum attended by more than 50-60 india loving US/European/Australian backpackers / tourists and a few indians. It was mostly india centric issues like poverty/bureaucracy / conversion. Most of our battle was fought on conversion issues - where ignorant villagers are being cheated and some frightening scenarious came out. there are many such serious issues.
Hindu scriptures say mere intellectual understanding of texts is not what leads us to enlightenment - direct experience/sadhana is required. Just because we are ignorant of something does not mean it does not exist.
travelling and understanding real india is a must.many of us do not know what india is. especially , it is true with Keralites that we are closed in our mindset and are proud about that keralan attitude. Malbaris every where - us/europe/gulf no exception. we do not venture out into the world and keep the pre-conceived notions / biases. we are good in conducting Himalayan theoretical discussions - just like our brothers in W. Bengal.
one of my missions is India's soul searching. if i get 10 days , i take the next flight to delhi and backpack out and take care in travelling on the most common modes of transport and walking for days into the deep villages - mostly into Himalayan kingdom of Uttaranchal / Himachal/ Jammu Kashmir + Rajastan + Bengal +UP + Punjab + Kaveri delta in TN etc. I have trekked deep and away from civilizations , risking my life, for days on end. I was forced to UNLEARN a lot of what i learned from books. even I was ashamed of what we know little even about our mother country and scriptures - compared with some foreigners. Last year in Manali , I found a french couple in their 50s flawlessly attired in desi clothes. The lasy visited 100 temples in Kerala for a study on murals and pronounced names like Irinjalakuda impeccably. How many of us venture into such a way of life ? Do you know in India , there is a place , standing at one place you can view a glacier, a glacier stream , forest , sand dunes of dessert and a double humped bactrian camel !!?- diversity thy name is India.
all IMVHO
<>
@ayyappadas,
a time will come, then you will realize the lessons taught by books are not enough to understand the world.
now you can escape with your verbal diarrhea's. it will not be true even if you repeat it for a million times.
what M.F. Hussain did is a serious offense. and the decision to give an award in the name of Ravi varma is much more bigger offense than that. and supporting all of them is an utter nonsense.
@James
That Mr. is your opinion. You have the right to keep it for yours. If you conclude, everyone else who differs as pseudo, word vomiters etc., that again is your conclusion. I have no issues with that. I am consistent with my stand that just because you state me as whatever, I need not be concerned and agitated. I won't put a blog to showcase, how "narrow" you think. It just doesn't concern me.
Just a doubt, am I talking to an octagenerian, who has seen the world more than three times that I have, read and experienced it as much and assimilated knowledge better? I don't try to jump into impressions about people. Atleast has been trying that over the past few years. This again is a golden rule as per Zen philosophy- try not to be judgemental.
"now you can escape with your verbal diarrhea's. it will not be true even if you repeat it for a million times."- LOL. Thank you. Any other comments.
BTW, who escaped and who stayed on... I have atleast shown that something you were shouting- SPINE- to stick on with discussion singlehandedly, in this "chakravyuha" of yours. Argue if you can. Don't repeat the same story 100 times. I am grateful to Mr. Rahul for a sensible, if limited, discussion (I don't know if you understand its meaning.)
@infinion
I agree that Keralites have a "kuupa mandooka" attitude by and large. Now having said that, I have a question.
"we do not venture out into the world and keep the pre-conceived notions / biases. we are good in conducting Himalayan theoretical discussions - just like our brothers in W. Bengal."- Are our N. Indian friends any better int this regard. The people from the "cow belt" or west coast. At times I have found many (not generalising) won't even bother to discuss, forget experiencing.
"I was forced to UNLEARN a lot of what i learned from books. even I was ashamed of what we know little even about our mother country and scriptures - compared with some foreigners. Last year in Manali , I found a french couple in their 50s flawlessly attired in desi clothes. The lasy visited 100 temples in Kerala for a study on murals and pronounced names like Irinjalakuda impeccably." - I too am planning one (to himalayas) in the span of a year. BTW, that "Irinjalakuda" is where I belong to.
i have seen , these , northies are getting a grasp. In 91-92 my initial years i spent in delhi in Haus Khas Jia sarai village within IIT ( for civil ser. prep) , the Bihari's and UP's di dnot know much beyond Chitrakoot to the south. now things are better.But we have not yet improved - may be due to the closed family atmosphere.
you can even see bus loads of Gujjus / Rajastanis heading for S.India. Even kerala is in teh circuit of many n. indians from Gulf.
but most of the europeans ihave met on my journeys , know much more about kerala than me and know the nuances of Ayurveda. During my trek to Gomukh, source of ganges , i met a swiss guy in his 50s who was trekking at that high altitude at a steady pace when my ass was kissing every stone on the way - he has done panchkarma in geneva and was commenting that ayerveda instructs to drink semi-cooled boiled water !.
Or may be the IT boom even. We became more concentrated in the south itself and people from the north are now moving south. Well, I have deliberately chose to move far away from home for that. Anyway, it will not be nice to have an unconnected discussion here I suppose. I'll comment on your blog, if you permit.
mr.a das => most welcome.
Mr.Ayyappadas
You are nobody to judge anybody and from my understanding you are trying to run away with nothing more to defend your views.
You just try to igmore what I have asked you and undermine it knowing very well you cannot answer them.
I deliberately typed in Caps, just to you & just by that you feel offended ! You may deny that too, as you have done earlier.
You said,
"FORGET IT. Haven't seen anything but slogan shouting and personal brandings.
So I have to conclude that you have no idea about this. Therefore I prefer to quit or please come in terms. After all it was you who advocated GREAT THINGS. I only ask for level play. "
I didn't do any slogan shouting ! .You asked for level play ?
All these days you were blindly trying to prove that Hussain is right and he has the right to paint whatever he likes even if it hurts others.
Later you were forced to admit the truth that you will protest if the subject of such a painting is your mother.
Then you started talking about objective & real . I asked you certain questions which I am sure made you think but you find it difficult to drop your ego & admit the truth .
Dear son, please go through all the comments right from the begining and read them carefully. Rahulji is very young to me & I saw ranjith-times brand me as Rahuls watchdog. I do not consider it as an insult, in fact I am proud of what I am doing and I am doing it not for Rahulji, but out of my love for my country & its culture.
Mr Anuj.
This is not my first debate in life. So a caps and gaalies make no difference (if you ask proof, that is why i am still answering)Well, this was no debate even. The rule in a debate is when one person answers and finally ask you to comment about his points, the other person should show a courtsey to respond or admit he cannot.
Now, I had been answering your CAPS for a series of posts. When I try to put a point you deliberately moved away. Again asking the same questions. Now that breaches the ethics of a debate. So I am not obliged to answer you. If you want to call that escapism, you may. But sure, I'll respond if you try to answer my questions too.
If your language and comprehension power is quite fine (as you claim), I have given an almost mathematical definition with the idea of objective reality (refer some books for its precise defintion). Now, if you claim your divine "sixth sense" makes you feel an icon like Ram or Sita provable, and futher more it applies to all masses, I have no say. If you prove it before me (let us talk about giving challenges), I'll humbly surrender and admit. Even you have a case there legally.
Then next ssue is that my point (repeatedly) was that 1. I DO NOT CONSIDER M. F. HUSSAIN'S INTENTION WAS TO DENIGRATE FOR MANY REASONS I QUOTED.If he did it deliberately, to hurt others or to make fun of Hinduism, the issue is different which case I do not support him. You have skipped all logical questions which if answered will provocate to doubt your own premises.
2. HE HAD EVEN APOLOGIZED. THEN WHY DO YOU MAKE THIS HUE AND CRY. WHAT IS YOUR AGENDA? IS IT UNFAIR IF I DOUBT A COMMUNAL CONSPIRACY BY YOU, TALKING IN THE NAME OF SECULARISM?
3. THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN A PRIZE FOR AN ART AND ARTIST. WHEN THE PRIZE IS AWARDED FOR AN ARTIST HOW CAN YOU SAY HE IS NOT ELIGIBLE BECAUSE OF A FEW INCIDENTS ALONE?
4. ANOTHER IMPORTANT QUESTION WAS THAT IS THIS SENSITIVITY APPLICABLE ONLY TO YOU(all religions, ethinic people etc.)? WHAT ABOUT OTHER MINORITY SECTIONS (tribals, other artists, rationalists etc.)? WILL YOU SUPPORT THEM AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED TO BE FOR JUSTICE PRINCIPLE? SO CAN I ASSUME THAT YOU WILL SUPPORT ME IF (for a hypothetical case in which)I PUT UP A BLOG TO PROTEST, WHEN MATA AMRITHANANTHAMAYI GETS ANOTHER AWARD, SINCE SHE HAD WRITTEN IN MATHRUVANI THAT ATHEISM IS IMMORAL AND SIN. NOW, THAT MEANS SHE HAS CALLED ALL ATHEISTS IMMORALS AND SINNERS. ALTHOUGH I AM NO STRONG ATHIEST, I BELIEVE BY THE LOGIC OF COMMUNITY FEELINGS SHE HAS DENIGRATED THEM PURPOSEFULLY. SHE(or anybody including a priest in the church or mosque or even any religious person who has made such apublic comment) DESERVE NO AWARD FOR ANY CAUSE.(Now, although I am not a fan of her, I have no issues other than ideological ones with her)IF YOU ARE NOT DOING IT YOU ARE BEING HYPOCRITICAL, FIRST OF ALL.
5. SINCE YOU HAVE FELT THAT HUSSAIN HAS TARNISHED HINDU IDOLS BY INDULGING INTO DRAWING NUDE PICTURES OF DEITIES, WILL YOU APPLY THE SAME LOGIC FOR KALIDASA (DESCRIBING PARVATI EROTICALLY), JAYA DEVA KAVI (FOR GEETHA GOVINDHAN) ETC ETC ...WILL YOU BE COURAGEOUS TO BURN RAGHUVAMSAM AND GEETA GOVINDHAM. WHY ARE NOT YOUR SENSIBILITIES HURT THEM? (Okay I discount the image of Sita with Hanuman, which as has been described by many art historians is not about Sita having sexual feelings for Hanuman. But the case of nude "bharat matha" etc.)
Now, sir, I don't know you age. Whatever it be, if the intention of your site was to hear a few "jai jai kars" , I agree that I landed in a wrong place. But I was mistaken when I saw a comment section. You should have put that only "lauding" comments are acceptable, debates, critcisms are unwelcome. I would have not bothered this much.
Dear Ayyappadas, Describing Parvati by Kalidasa, Rati sukha sare, is different from paiting them nude. THe difference is subtle but clear. I will give you an example. But many things can be better conveyed through examples.
When a person is having physical relation shipwith a prostitute
and
When a person is having physical relationship with his own wife.
Both is physical relationship But are they same. We can say, when we look from outside with out understanding those people. It is same. But is it the same? What is the difference.
The difference is of relationship, ethics, perspective, values and morals.
That is Why Sringara is different from vulgarity. All yellow metals are not gold. Think about this
Dear Mr. Rahul,
Fine if you say, "sringara" and "asabhya", be the distinction. So let me clarify this again. For an artist his/her medium is paint brush and expressing the innocense, beauty and purity as nudity is a way in painting, if those concepts are involved in the theme. If artist mean no harm but express the beauty, charm and purity of a concept using this, and that concept is from an epical character, will that be vulgarity?
Jayadeva was praising Vishnu and Kalidasa was praising the beauty of Parvati. So if Hussain (or any artist for that matter) wanted to convey a subtle expression in admiration of the epic and its characters and utilised his medium, to depict them linking them to some modern concept/crisis, will that be called vulgar.
You ponder over the earlier question, the difference between physical relationship with wife and a lady who sells her body.
Is their a difference ? if yes, what is it?
That is the same difference with Kalidasa and Hussain...
I can explain the answer, but then it will only be my point of view. Think about this question for 2 minutes seriously argue both sides and try to see the difference.
Alright I got what you meant. Art to be sold, does not deserve the liberty, is your point.
Well from there, another issue arises, I admit that epics were not written to be sold. Take the case of Kalidasa itself, he was the court poet of Vikramadithya (one of the navarathna as per myth/history), if not for money, he surely gained fame and praise for his works. And also the material benefit. I am not arguing kalidasa was an "eezhaam kooli", but as a matter of fact, even artists and poets (if that happen to be their profession) are dependent on their repute and fame; after all they are human beings too and not saints in the real sense.
Consider another case, Hussain did bag huge prizes (as money) for his paintings, but does that necesserily imply that all that he painted and exhibited were for this single purpose. I scribble poems at times, it is my way of outlet (although not profession), and so in a work I depicted something "very sensitive" and was praised and criticised by various groups. Then if you are with the critic group, since I did not intend to sell it or provoke anybody (just that our perceptions are different and all geniuses are mad- not that I am claiming to be one- from the behavioural perspective), what will your arguments be.
No the point was not of selling or material benefit.
"The question of ethics is the toughest question for it is beyond logic"
and also Socrates, who is known as the father of ethics,is reported to have stated many times (especially in dialouges with euthyphro). ethics is tough to discover, that doesnt mean it is not there.
Let us take the example earlier itself. and leave EConomic aspect
(Marx is talking too much inside u)
Consider this
A man having Physical relationship with a woman outside his marriage or love
&
The same man making love to his beloved
Is their any difference ?
Is having Sex and Making love different? or are these simply literal usages.
And remember when a person understands this difference, he understands the difference between body and soul.
The actions might be the same, the bodily movements might be the same, Yet the act is not the same. There is difference in quality, involvement, care, love, affection, ethics, mind.
Think about the above analogy. This comparison helped me personally a lot, when I was analysing ethics and morality. the tough aspect is ethics are so subtle and sublime to be pin pointed.
"The easiest thing in Philosophy is to argue against ethics, for no one can prove it."
and the "toughest thing in life is to 'discover' ethics"
You may have observed, thinking especially thinking that "everything is relative and subjective " denies ethics totally.
But still minds 'feels' ethics.
But then the thought says "it is because we are thinking from a particular place and conditioning(chatta koodu). "
But still conscience pricks...
It is a difficult argument for abstract things are very tough to argue upon. But still I will convey something
"Earlier the Fight was between Right and Wrong.
But in this Century, the fight is between right and "the idea that there is no right&wrong"
And that is the most dangerous situation
Dear Ayyappadas,
The question you ask is OK, but nobody ( I believe that includes you) wishes to see the purity or beauty of their mother depicted through nudity .Sringara is not Abhasa. Sringara is a natural emotion depicted with decency. Vulgarity is something that crosses the limits with dirty intentions. Even vulgarity has its limits. Showing sex with a child, with ones immediate relative or animals
are examples.
Vulgur is not a sweet beautiful thing. RAPE cannot be defined as "FORCED LOVE MAKING ".
If the artist considers his subject as epical charecter there are so many people who consider them real.If the artists from different religions start painting the sacred images of the other religions in such a fashion in the name of creative freedom that itself will lead to a great war of religions ! Worse than the present communal problems. So it would be wise & nice if artists can try to work for communal harmony rather than to incite passions.
This is what I have to say about your questions:
1. You do not believe Hussain did it deliberately.
The very fact that he painted Fathima the daugher of the Prophet well-clad is enough evidence to counter your arguement He targets only a particular community and it is depicted not just nude but vulgurly.
These facts are mentioned many times in this blog by many people
including me. I consider your mother as my own mother & I did not mean to hurt you by citing examples & comparisions. I did it because it was absolutely necessary to make you realise how it hurts the believers & what triggers the protests.(Though you said what hurts me is not your concern).
In fact from your repeated queries of the same nature which were answered numerous times makes me believe you are arguing just for the sake of it and to make it appear that we are answerless !
2.You say he has apologised. First of all ,I am not aware of it.
If he apologised he should have realised he did a mistake. Right?
Then how can you still putforth & substantiate that you do not believe he committed anything wrong.
3.An expert surgeon cannot get away with a few deaths due to his negligence with the excuse of the numerous successful ones he did.
He is a notorious publicity monger and I am very aware of his gimmicks for publicity.
Earlier somewhere you mentioned about Charvaka. Charvaka siddhantam says, "If there is smoke in the mountain, there should be fire" . Thats all I have to say about Hussains works.
Delhi High Court Judge Justice Kapoor criticised Hussain about his paintings in his judgmenent and that is not without reason.
4. You asked, "ANOTHER IMPORTANT QUESTION WAS THAT IS THIS SENSITIVITY APPLICABLE ONLY TO YOU(all religions, ethinic people etc.)? WHAT ABOUT OTHER MINORITY SECTIONS (tribals, other artists, rationalists etc.)"
The answer is YES, it is applicable to all. Not just tribals, other artists & rationalists. I have many tribal friends & I have stayed with them in the forests. I know many of their problems & how the modern man is exploiting them.
Whoever it is if the depiction is vulgar and in bad taste it has to be condemned. I will protest .
Muslims protested against the profanity of The Prohets wives in Satanic Verses , Hindus protest against Hussain for the nude vulgar depiction , Christians protested in Vadodara over the painting of Jesus Christ naked on the cross with his penis hanging out urinating into a commode .
What you said about Mata Amrithananda Mayi is not too serious to be taken as an insult. It is too far a comparison. Hindus have been subject to similar bashing from every quarters everyday and they are not taken seriously. In this blog, so many times there appeared mocking comments about Hanuman, Ganapathy, Saraswathi and even Golwakar . Politicians are doing that with all vigour and it's a daily affair. It is not serious like depicting something so close & attached to somebody, vulgurly. That is why I earlier mentioned the attacks on media by the Communists who preach freedom of expression when they cannot tolerate critisism . It is the same with all political parties.
People like M.O.Joseph, Edamaruk & Kovoor did not have any price on their head even though they attacked Hinduism with all their might. I have read all those books & still have them in my library.
If Mata Amritanada Mayi gets an award it might probably be for charity work or services to the society, not for saying atheists have no moral value. She does not try to see whether the benefector of her charity is a believer or worker of her Mutt.
5. The answer at the begining
Dear Rahul,
I appreciate courrage in keeping my post on Makarajyothi here.
Commonsense is enough (no PG in philosophy) to understand this as a govt. sponsored gimmick.
Dear Rajan,
First of all,here the topic is not Makarajyothi.Still....
Those people can use the same common sense not to visit that place if they do not believe in it. They can also think with the same common sense that it is none of their business to interfere as long as it is not harming anyone. Right ? What purpose does it serve by just keeping on calling it a hoax ? If it is a hoax, those lakhs who visit there just for a glimpse must be fools in your view. Isn't it more foolish to interefere there if it is of no good for you and if it is doing no harm to anybody. Let the believers believe and you just leave them alone. Obviously you can react if somebody tries to drag you there against your wish.
All I say is, please leave the believers alone & if people like Hussain are real intelligent wise people why should they provoke others? Why get provoked is not the answer to that question.
Thanks.
Dear Mr. Rahul,
"You may have observed, thinking especially thinking that "everything is relative and subjective " denies ethics totally.
But still minds 'feels' ethics.
But then the thought says "it is because we are thinking from a particular place and conditioning(chatta koodu). "
This is an important point. First of all, I am no nihilist. But I am very particular about who defines ethics and values for a society and what reasons does he/she attributes to the definition.
I have a friend who have lived initial years of his life in US. He is as much an Indian as any of us. He loves the 'nation' and as much as anybody else. Now, this person, may be more due to his exposition, do not find concenseful "love making" by two adults taboo at anylevel, (now I used this example, since there is no conscience prick for him), but values a relationship as deeply as any typical Indian. Therefore, when somebody sneaks into his life, doing a moral policing and make that a campaign , his sentiments are hurt. It is not due to the fact that he feel guilty, but because people labelled him as "unethical, immoral, evil, morron". You can have your take about him, but remember, there is a strong question of moral relativism here. A European might wonder how could two adults marry without knowing eachother and see if they are not sexually compatible. Now, this cannot be trivilased to put it as "you wanna fuck and forget". No, absolutely not and he/she is not doing that publicly or is engaging in a cheating. What we have at hand is this real case of conflict in the concept of morality. Would you as an individual, granted freedom for his way of life or critised him?
What is the Indianness or the morality and ethics of an Indian is the first question? I strongly object if people like to define it as "follow the aarsha bharatha culture" (which itself is a subject of debate). I do follow much of the "Indian ethics", may be due to the way I am brought up but does that mean another person should be denied the right to disagree. If a person has ideological differences with one form of Indian culture, will you label him unworthy of a nation?
"Earlier the Fight was between Right and Wrong.
But in this Century, the fight is between right and "the idea that there is no right&wrong"
Yes, I agree and this is evident. Now, the important reason for this is not just to be fashionable (as people put), but because people have witnessed the hypocrisy of religious structures, political structures and been victims of imposition of a single moral/social/political conduct. Take the case of Hitler, Stalin, China, etc. I will never trust that right wing (or left or centre) propaganda for imposing the "Indian morality" because it is one particular version of it that they advocate. I find such an approach no different than Mussolini's. We have a nation at hand which has gone through and assimilated various streams of thought and so I believe that other than a broad frame work of well defined legality, and an atmosphere were people can learn and come up with their own ideas (without infringing others' freedom), an iron hand code (let be from the past or arguable for a future) is not required. Now, to your question whether I want to live like a European and why, I would say NO and because I am not comfortable with it. But I do not believe that those who are comfortable with it need be condemned and neither do I find it wise or ethical (call it my ethics). After all, who is you and I to pass those judgements, when we can not feel another person's emotions and thoughts to its subtlity.
@Anuj
"What you said about Mata Amrithananda Mayi is not too serious to be taken as an insult. It is too far a comparison."
Don't get me wrong, but if you are not aware, some people find direct offensive brandings more sensitive than making a joke out of them. I have met many a such people. That is why, I do not wish to take any stray remarks as insult (as much as humanly possible). Even when I desperately feel it to be an insult, I do not like to make it a larger issue.
Next is the case of people considering their dieties as dear as real people and be willing to die or kill for them. Evenwhile I feel it as very inappropriate, I can accomodate those people too. My issue was that they have no right to be offended, but that isn't that move a bit misplaced? Or let me put it as "is your faith so fragile"?. Alright if you say it is, no issues , but then you NEED to look from others viewpoint too when every other issue comes up. I could say Pope's visit to India (if it happens) should be protested since, (suppose)Pope made a very straight and clear statement about say athiests (consider a hypothetical case if he says Hinduism is an evil religion publically. I am sure you con't keep quiet.). I will sure say that although no atheists will indulge into that, you should also look at their sensibilities- atleast ask him to appologise.
But when you define that as the defintion for your love towards nation and culture I beg to disagree. For me, I do not need to remember "janani janma bhoomischa, swargaathapee gareeyasi.." (also because I do believe in a heaven, hell or punarjanma as described in scriptures)when the question of India comes. May be I cannot describe it, but my love for nation is not that intense mad love (that you subscribe to), but a love of respect, awe, wonder and more. My sensibilities were not hurt by that paintings. Obviously it depends on how you interpret it too. Also, as you advocate, the picture that comes to my mind about nation is not mother's, but an abstraction which is undescribable and I cannot label it. The best way, I could identify is the second/third chapter in "Discovery of India" where Nehru talks about the picture that comes to his mind when he thinks about India. But when you brand that such a feeling is not permissible, and people who feel ways other than yours are anti-nationals, isn't it unfair that I distrust you?
Correction- "My issue was that they have no right to be offended, but that isn't that move a bit misplaced? "
read as "My issue was not that they have no right to be offended ...."
Dear Ayyappadas,
How can we say somebody has no right to get hurt ? Somebody feels offended by something which hurts him. Its a feeling. Like bodys response to stumili. You have the right to think your way & feel your way. Agreed.
Hussain has hurt many people with his paintings & they protest.Right?
You feel he is right and he did not hurt you. The people who protest have not hurt you too and you express your views . If either Hussain or the protesters hurt you, was it necessary to comment on it? (Please don't take it as offensive). What purpose does it serve if you comment on something that does not affect you in anyway and hurts the people who are already hurt ? Does this freedom of expression help Hussain or you in anyway other than to see some people hurt?
Faith is not fragile.
How ever we try to deny it, the truth is that everyman is egocentric, familycentric & ethnocentric. He sees his faith as something close to these three; a part of it. Hussain knows it very well & that's why he painted his mother, daughter & Fathima well-clad.
See, in a way we can say you are not Ayyappadas. It is just a name,a name that didn't belong to you, a name somebody put on you , a name others call you and you become Ayyappadas.You have a passport with that name, you get your certificates in that name & that is your identification. Now somebody abuses Ayyappadas, its you who feels offended. If you go to court it identifies you as Ayyappadas the petitoner.If the court punish you it rules Ayyappadas guilty. You cannot change your name to evade punishment.
If we apply logic to everything, nothing is real ! For your family you are more important than your neighbours,can somebody say it shouldn't be that way?
We can say countries are not real. Who set the boundries, who named it ? What BharatMata? What India? How can my neighbour say I cannot cross the border? Why the borders are protected?
I am born here and I am an Indian by birth. I have to protect it .Isn't it similar to our own property, our own house? Why should we have house names? Why fences ? We value every inch of our property & protect it from encroachment. Is that all necessary ?
Man being a social being cannot survive alone. He has to live in a society that has its own definetions,rules ,laws, ethics & punishments. We need to respect them atleast if we don't believe in them.
About atheists being hurt by the Pope:
See dear friend, If the Pope makes any such statement against athiests why should they get hurt if they do not believe in God, the Pope, Hell, Heaven or Sin and are very strong advocates for freedom of expression.I believe athiests will respect his freedom of expression and laud him for being so open & free.If he calls for their heads I will defenitely protest .
When you say,
" But when you brand that such a feeling is not permissible, and people who feel ways other than yours are anti-nationals, isn't it unfair that I distrust you? "
By what we feel,can't it be like this:
But when you brand that such feeling is not permissible, and people who feel ways other than yours are fundamentalists, is it unfair that we distrust you?"
"See, in a way we can say you are not Ayyappadas. It is just a name,a name that didn't belong to you, a name somebody put on you , a name others call you and you become Ayyappadas.You have a passport with that name, you get your certificates in that name & that is your identification. Now somebody abuses Ayyappadas, its you who feels offended. If you go to court it identifies you as Ayyappadas the petitoner.If the court punish you it rules Ayyappadas guilty. You cannot change your name to evade punishment."
- The most wonderful argument i had seen here so far. it explains all.
Ayyappadas, you are still in the shell of your ego, realize the fact that what M***** F***** hussain did is wrong.
Ayyapada Uncle..
Why are u arguing unncessarily?
Our society and nation needs learned persons like you to guide us properly, not keep on arguing with all those who do not agree with you. If u do not support mr rahul easwar pl keep away from this site. That will be more helpful for every hindu and indian.
Please give freedom to an artist to draw what he likes.....
If you have some knowledge in history and belief in all mythologies....you would agree that gods lived thousands of years ago.....where do you have these dress materials then???
there was a comment from a person...what would a person opposing rahul would say if his mother's nude picture is drawn....
all these people take tickets and watch shakeela, maria movies with nudity....do they see their mother or sister there?
Okay.....leave all that aside.... Go to any temple in India....Padmanabha swamy temple...attukal temple....chettikulangara......guruvayur.... how do you see the dwarapalakas????..... Their naked breasts are carved in the temple doors......why don't all these peopel oppose that first????
Mr.Kidilam,
Here people are protesting because Hussain depicted BharatMata ,Sita ,Lakshmi, Saraswathi in nude. Nobody does care a damn if he draws nude pictures but it shouldn't be paintings that hurt others.
By what you say I think you are a great fan of the movies you mentioned and listen dear brother you can watch those creativity even with your family if you wish so. That is not of concern for us, if that is what you like.
You do not talk sense by saying Gods lived thousands of years ago ! Thats a joke. God is not considered as dead by believers. Still if it is OK for you, you can live like how your ancestors lived 5000 years ago (if your neighbours permit).
I just wish Mr.Kidilam read all the comments from the begining & try to understand it.
The very example of dwarapalakas in nude at temples shows that nudity was not taboo or considered bad by Hindus.This is explained very well in some earlier comments.
Please read all the previous comments & respond if you have anything sensible to debate.
Mr. Anuj,
"How can we say somebody has no right to get hurt ? Somebody feels offended by something which hurts him."- I did not say, you don't have the right to be hurt. But just that isn't this reaction a bit misplaced. (read the previous post and the correction)
"See, in a way we can say you are not Ayyappadas. It is just a name,a name that didn't belong to you, a name somebody put on you , a name others call you and you become Ayyappadas.You have a passport with that name, you get your certificates in that name & that is your identification. Now somebody abuses Ayyappadas, its you who feels offended. If you go to court it identifies you as Ayyappadas the petitoner.If the court punish you it rules Ayyappadas guilty. You cannot change your name to evade punishment."
I agree with this argument. But I believe you too know that this is a circular argument that even I could apply and argue for a case. But that would make an argument for the sake of it.
Here, let me make it clear that I disagreed with the following premises: i. the (over)reaction to call for denying award to an artist(whoever he is), who is eligible by the standards of art.
ii. the argument that when people feel "hurt" for ANY case, they have the right to go for a mob kind of reaction (this is not like saying we disagree with Hussain and he should apologise).
iii. then finally your idea that this is about justice and not a community feeling.
I believe that you truly understand that your argument for the athiest analogy's reply was very weak while your passion for religious causes quite outstanding. Sure, they don't have anything to do with hell or heaven, but it is about the word "evil", "unethical" etc, which gets translated into (and clearly so) saying 'only believers are good people', or ' don't even go near them, for they will destroy you and society'. Isn't that very similar to denigrating a religious person's idols and identity.
I believe athiests will respect his freedom of expression and laud him for being so open & free.If he calls for their heads I will defenitely protest .- No, I am not saying about their stand and they probably won't bother (even I won't bother). I asked your reaction. Do you atleast feel it as inappropriate, since according to your definition of not denigrating other people, he did a deliberate attempt to denigrate? Also, nobody (including me) ever said freedom of expression is about a deliberate attempt to wage a war unless that it inevitable as in speaking out a covered up truth. It applies to both sides.
Now, I am sure that such a case, if arises (a direct abuse at a non-believer section), much of the religions/religious people won't search for justice. Also Kazanthzakis could be denied Nobel prize for 'heresy' (even when he was a believer), Milan Kundera will not be awarded nobel prize despite his class and quality par above many other recent winners, while a missionary organisation (respecting the fact that it does charity work) which also made such statements will definitely be considered. I just wanted to point to you, that your case of argument was not a universal justice. And the whole bunch of the supporters of this won't even make a positive comment for many different cases, since you won't feel about them and your ethical stand and at times even ridicule them. Not just about rationalists, but also many other sections of people, probably minorities in the political, ideological or sexual orientation (now I believe the last one will be a furore in India, while in many a countries there are laws prohibiting discrimination against them and I believe even when I need not be one of them, they shouldn't be discriminated here too). Ethnic and religious identities are real, but so are others' too. I raised this argument to convey this single fact- your claim that you argue for this since you are for justice is not true and even you won't apply it universally.
"Man being a social being cannot survive alone. He has to live in a society that has its own definetions,rules ,laws, ethics & punishments. We need to respect them atleast if we don't believe in them."
I agree. But would like to add that a society need to move ahead too, otherwise it will rot. That requires laws to be amended with time and that requires discussion and debates. If todays law is anachronistic and society stagnant a person might need to even break it to prove a point. (that was not aimed at Hussein as if he broke to prove a point).
"But when you brand that such feeling is not permissible, and people who feel ways other than yours are fundamentalists....." - My point was not that you shouldn't feel 'strongly' or say overexcited about superficialities of the nation concept, but when you impose those very standards of living with brute force; like discriminating and making a propaganda that 'I did not feel that painting too offensive' implies a 'Pakisthani spy'/'somebody whom the whole bunch of common people need to distrust'/'he who shouldn't be given any responsible national job' etc, the case is different. While when I suggested your views are fundamentalistic, it implies I cannot buy your argument and is too irrelavent, imposing and extreme to me. Here I never said (or atleast implied) about you as a person- fundamentalist is only concerned with a view. Also my point was that I wouldn't like to follow your rules regarding these issues. I never said you need to come down to my concept, but that your protest is irrelevant according to me and going beyond democratic ways to do it, is obviously unethical (as you too argued for rules).
Last, so much posts was for this basic purpose; to see where our views stand and not because I wanted to spam here.
Dear Mr.Ayyappadas,
Q:
'I agree with this argument. But I believe you too know that this is a circular argument that even I could apply and argue for a case. But that would make an argument for the sake of it."
A:
I am glad that you agree every argument can be countered with a circular argument.
When I said that about Ayyappadas it was just because I was addressing Ayyappadas and even if you make a circular arguement it does not nullify or deny what I conveyed. The point is clear but the roles change ! That cannot be an arguement for the sake of it because that arguement cements the point what that it is meant to convey.
Q:
"Here, let me make it clear that I disagreed with the following premises: i. the (over)reaction to call for denying award to an artist(whoever he is), who is eligible by the standards of art."
A:
How can you decide the reaction is lower or over ? You say what you think and I say what I think. Both think from what we percieve and then analyse right and wrong. Here, you say what I think is wrong and I say what you think is wrong. Else, I say what I think is right and you say what you think is right.THE DIFFERENCE IS, I REACT FOR SOMETHING THAT HURT ME AND YOU REACT SAYING IT'S NEEDLESS. How can you decide, for what I should get hurt and what I shouldn't get hurt? Just think who is trying to impose a thought on the other.
How can you decide the level of others reaction? If we have ten people in a room and if they all face the same kind of some inconveniance how will we judge their reactions and set a benchmark? If a psychiatrist studies them, he may even brand the person who did not care to react as Schizophrenic !
You believe Hussain is eligible for this award judged by the standards of his Art.Are you sure all artists has similar views about his standard? Is eligibility the sole criterea ? Will an expert doctor with a history of raping some of his patients excused considering his proficiency ? Frankly I believe he very much deserves an award for Gimmicks if there is any.
Q:
" the argument that when people feel "hurt" for ANY case, they have the right to go for a mob kind of reaction (this is not like saying we disagree with Hussain and he should apologise)."
A:
The nature of reaction depends on the intensity of the provocation and in fact you very well know that the reaction from Hussains own community would have been even worse had he painted something that they find offensive to them.
If somebody thinks it's right to offend ,the offended can think it's right to hit back. Isn't it better that one be careful not to offend ? Again I repeat, how it will be if people of different religions start attacking each other through Art ? Where will it lead if Hindu artists start painting The Prophet, Mother Mary or Jesus Christ in similar fashion ? If Muslim artists and Christian artists does the same against each others religions ?.Can we call it absolute freedom of expression and encourage it ? Does that sound nice?
About demanding an apology,
Somebody may stamp on your feet accidently and apologise.A deliberate kick cannot be pardoned and if it is continous it's certainly an offence and the offender needs to be punished.Still,
Will the paintings get erased when he apologise?
Q:
" I believe that you truly understand that your argument for the athiest analogy's reply was very weak while your passion for religious causes quite outstanding. Sure, they don't have anything to do with hell or heaven, but it is about the word "evil", "unethical" etc, which gets translated into (and clearly so) saying 'only believers are good people', or ' don't even go near them, for they will destroy you and society'. Isn't that very similar to denigrating a religious person's idols and identity. "
A:
If you felt so I can only say, may be you read between lines or you have such a feeling embeded deep inside your subconcious mind.All I meant to say is how can people who claim to be unaffected by such fears(unwanted ?) and are vehement advocates of freedom of expression take such things seriously? Can I call that fragile too?
Q:
"I asked your reaction. Do you atleast feel it as inappropriate, since according to your definition of not denigrating other people, he did a deliberate attempt to denigrate?"
A:
I have the answer for this in one of my previous comments.I will repeat,
Hindus have been subject to similar bashing from every quarters everyday and they are not taken seriously. In this blog, so many times there appeared mocking comments about Hanuman, Ganapathy, Saraswathi and even Golwakar . Politicians are doing that with all vigour and it's a daily affair.
People like M.O.Joseph, Edamaruk & Kovoor did not have any price on their head even though they attacked Hinduism with all their might. It is not serious like depicting something so close & attached to somebody, vulgurly.
All such denigration was not taken seriously .Similarly your question about the Pope deserves to be ignored. If you are not tolerent enough like Hindus you can react. You mean to say the Masters of denigration feels hurt by denigration ? !
What are Athiests set to prove ? They target religions. With what purpose? They poke their noses into every religion with the intention to prove God does not exist and religions are useless. They view believers of God as fools .If they think what they believe is true, they are free to do so, but why this keenness to undermine religions ?
Communists claim to be athiests. I have attended many marriages of the children of its leaders and everywhere it went according to religious rituals. The ashes of Late Chief Minister E.K Nayanar was immersed at Kanyakumari according to Hindu rituals . He was one of the greatest athiests of his time.He first made the popular remark "Why should God need mans protection?".
Q:
"I just wanted to point to you, that your case of argument was not a universal justice. And the whole bunch of the supporters of this won't even make a positive comment for many different cases, since you won't feel about them and your ethical stand and at times even ridicule them"
A:
Dear friend, Somebody who believes in God atleast fears something, his conscience may atleast prevent him from committing serious crimes. Yes, crime happens now, and it will be there always but a world without religions or fear of God would be terrible.
You can only say you THINK my case of argument was not a Universal justice. As I mentioned earlier, you say what you think & I say what I think. I think, what you think about my case of argument is not right. Ridicule... Am I wrong if I think, that's what you were doing since the first day you commented here ?
Q:
"I raised this argument to convey this single fact- your claim that you argue for this since you are for justice is not true and even you won't apply it universally. "
A:
I see that as a statement from you.
Should I take it as a desperate one?
Q:
"I never said you need to come down to my concept, but that your protest is irrelevant according to me and going beyond democratic ways to do it, is obviously unethical (as you too argued for rules).
(#)
A:
Hope you realise that it applies to everyone & again the question araises...Who determines what is right?
Q:
"If todays law is anachronistic and society stagnant a person might need to even break it to prove a point."
A:
Isn't it contradictory with what you said which i have quoted above (#) ?
If you feel the protest is irrelevant it is your view and I am not concerned about it because in my thinking I believe what I do is right. Again you talk contradictory to what you have said earlier. Democratic ways?
But you said this in the same comment -
"If todays law is anachronistic and society stagnant a person might need to even break it to prove a point."
Democratic ways not applicable to you ?
He doesn't deserve any award. Look at his pictures, any 5 year old can draw better.
Ha Ha Ha...
Great comment mr syamkumar.
But the award is not for his art..but for the perverted idea and imagination.
Dear Rahul,first of all,my heart felt appreciation for having spearheaded this protest.I would like to do whatever it takes to prevent the award going to M.F.Hussian. I hear his name associated with women and their backsides!We call such people 'lech'.While visiting most of the countries,I learn culture from art and sometime in awe observing the similarity of culture across the globe.Indians have always been tolerent and we have been tolerent so far.If he was to get any award for any of his doodles,the page that carried the news would have lived for a day and nobody would have cared to talk about it.It really does not matter to us Indians.I really wonder if his cause of birth was normal.I also wonder if he fancies having sex with his pets,mother ,sisters or his teacher.If yes,he needs treatment ,not an AWARD.Nudity by itself is not vulgar.Bare bottom of a child,toned shoulder or chest of a man,voluptous curves of a woman are indeed a visual treat to our eyes,if created as a honour of beauty of 'Creator.That is what we get to see in old Hindu temples.They are representations of living forms with vivid expression and imaginations.However,if an artist starts imagining real people or characters in mythology or history in their nude form,he has to be punished and not rewarded.It is the highest form of disrespect to the nation to have painted Bharat Mata nude and the most disgraceful action of a human being to have painted Sita Mata nude,hurting the sentiments of not just Hindus,but all the men and women in India.M.F.Hussian needs immediate treatment.He should stop imagining himself sleeping with his mother.This will ensure he does not paint Bharat Mata nude .He should not stare at the private parts of animals.This will ensure his imagination does not run wild.He should also stop peeping into others bedroom,just because he has lost it.It is a bad habit M.F.Hussain.If Kerala Goverment finally gives away this award to M.F.Hussian ,Rahul,What do we do
???
I appreciate your comments mr shanmull.I too will join with you to do anything to stop hussain 'the maniac' getting this award. we all true indians should join hands in this regards.
shame on all those who are supporting this ghastly act by hussain.
"THE DIFFERENCE IS, I REACT FOR SOMETHING THAT HURT ME AND YOU REACT SAYING IT'S NEEDLESS. How can you decide, for what I should get hurt and what I shouldn't get hurt? Just think who is trying to impose a thought on the other...."
Yes both of us argue from our perspectives. But who is calling for action? Forget that I disagree, still I never imposed (how could I!) If you argue that putting my perspective on this page is imposition, I don't have anything else to say. I never said Govt. should take action to ban this site. The only point was while you can disagree and even declare that openly(again that is freedom of expression), you don't have , in general, the right to force your arguments into an action. It is not I, who say this is, but this is a basic pillar of democrazy as I have understood. We need not agree, we can agree to disagree, but we cannot force all those who disagree to agree.
There is a difference, however subtle but very clear, between action, call for action and expression of a view. Otherwise all naxalite activities are legitimate too.
"If they think what they believe is true, they are free to do so, but why this keenness to undermine religions ? ....."
It was my opinion that these paintings (if you consider them denigrate) as "ignorable" and yours was that it is not. Also, I mentioned that no athiests/rationalists will take up a cause to oppose a Pope's visit example. It is your view that such statements are to be avoided (by all). So I asked according to you whether Pope made a bad remark. The question was very simple. The issue whether what values athiests stand for does not arise here. In the case of people who stand for justice why should the thought be about their values, you only need to be consistent with yours. And I did not ask whether you will lead a protest for it; only your opinion. They could be called ignorable means you will probably ignore if Pope denigrate Hinduism. Is it? I asked this to see if your stand is consistent or not and I felt it is not from the explanation.
"Communists claim to be athiests. I have attended many marriages of the children of its leaders and everywhere it went according to religious rituals...."
I don't know if that is a rule. Probably all older generation ones were atheists. The question of son's marriage is different and you must be aware that there are communists who have conducted their marriages not in the traditional way too. There will be hypocrats everywhere. But important question is , forget communists, why should Mr. X, impose his views up on his adult son/daughter? I personally wouldn't like to do that in my life, whoever it is son/daughter/wife/parents etc. And a non-believer could be present in the ceremony because he/she is father/mother/relative/close friend and that is a compromise out of love and care (not because of a sudden fear of God); there is no question of betraying stands there; the person is not changing his views too.
And the last part regarding Nayanar- I suppose it was not the dead Nayanar who wanted his ashes to be deposited in Kanyakumari (I have not heard about any will by him). May be, I think Nayanar never imposed his views on his children or wife, which I believe is up to his credit and not failure. Or should he have done that? After death the body of the dead goes intot the custody of their close ones and they decide- not even party usually argues for a say there. May be the only possible argument you can have is that Nayanar should have thought about his death and given instructions beforehand not to deposit his last remains by any ritual. Hmm.., but that sounds spurious to me for it is human that a person never wishes to think and plan for his death.
"Dear friend, Somebody who believes in God atleast fears something, his conscience may atleast prevent him from committing serious crimes. Yes, crime happens now, and it will be there always but a world without religions or fear of God would be terrible."
Sorry, I terribly disagree here. Just looking at the history of humanity so far: who made all the bloody wars? who were the most brutal dictators (exceptions might be Stalin/Mao)? In what name is the maximum amount of blood spilled on earth? Just take a survey, the thumbing majority (more than 99.9%) of ones who do serious crimes like robbery (even chambal daciots), murder and rape are believers itself. Their belief never comes a stumbling block. There are no born non-believers in our society. Most of them move away from thiesm after witnessing the hypocrisy of religious structures and bigotary; some of them might preserve an idea of God and some might move further away. And I disagree with your basic assumption that ethics is "fear disguised" (that somebody is watching me and so be careful). That would be like arguing for the (George Orwell's) "1984" novel situation. I have atleast found that most athiests never call for anti-sikh riots, Godhra, war on Iraq etc. Still human nature has its features and so in any system will have its stakes and issues.
"Ridicule... Am I wrong if I think, that's what you were doing since the first day you commented here ? .."
Was it? My first posts were two articles with an exhoration to reply to the issues it raised. From the first reply itself, I had a brand name (refer back) and then very many titles; next only recently you have started addressing questions I raised, while I tried to adress your questions before. Even by standards of language , there can be a line drawn regarding who was ridiculing. But then that is not an issue here. Think what you feel like.
"If todays law is anachronistic and society stagnant a person might need to even break it to prove a point."
There is no contradiction as that statement was implied at societal laws and mannerisms where no well defined amendment mechanism exist. Subjective it is, but Democrazy have an amendment mechanism which if the electorate wishes be utilised.
"Democratic ways not applicable to you ?" Of course. When did I breach it? Be very specific as we are talking about democratic ways.
Now, there is a usage of "devil preaching gospel". Don't get me wrong, I do not imply you are "devil", but when you are not for relativism (in morality, social conduct or ethics), why are you using relative arguments? Is it to prove that by my arguments you can reply me back? Yes, I know it very well and I have no issues with arguments (but I thought that you are not for relativism). After all I did not advocate for "thrash that guy" and my stand is consistent within the premises I defined. Can you put clearly what your actual premises are? Or is it that you too stand for relativism, in which case you should be ready to consider that liberty for Hussain too.
Rahul,
I have some doubts regarding the post. Hope you will not be deleting this comment once you read it also....
1. Is that you who had added the comments or the explanation for each picture?
2. If it was you, then what if I say that you are trying to inflate the problem up like a ballon?
I have the explanation why I came into that conclusion...
First picture...How come you came into the conclusion that it is Lord Ganesha on top of whom Lakshmi is sitting? From what I know Ganesha has the head only of an elephant and all his limbs are human (at least that is what we believe)...but the picture clearly shows the body and limbs of an elephant..and like anuj had said about the dwarapalikas, nakedness alone is not a taboo in hinduism...What if the caption was "Goddess Lakshmi naked atop an elephant"?...maybe it would not help your cause in causing such a furore..
Second picture...Again I dont find anything to be so agitated other than the picture is showing nakedness...and that it is differnt from the way Ravi Varma had drawn...but Raja Ravi Varma is not an authority to say how Saraswati looked like or in which posture she sat and all since it is a belief...
Third picture...In which angle did you find Devi Durga in sexual union here? From what I can see, she is sitting atop the tiger...but not in the way as the calender photo shows...First one shows it like how a lady sits on a scooter wearing a saree and this one shows how she sits on a bike with a churidar (or jeans)..here also only nakedness is there...
Fourth one...If I say this depicts the state of bharatmata now....ie., the concept of bharat mata itself include both pak and bangladesh...She was happy and looking beautiful when the time the first picture was drawn...and now the state is a bit different where she is mourning for all these kind of problems created by the people who lives on that land..what if i say she is mourning for the corruption and increasing communal mobs and all..
Fifth one...here also everything is naked (no wonder since MFH's works are mostly naked)...but has he written anywhere that sita is sitting on ravana's thighs? there is something called a perspective view and something called viewing angle and all...I have taken a photo with my friend holding the sun between his fingers which was taken at sunset...Does it mean that i can publish the picture saying my friend actually held the sun between his fingers? No. Here what I see is hanuman fighting ravana in the asokavanam with sita shown in the background...
Sixth one...I dont have to give my views as an earlier post gives a link saying this shows hanuman's meditation or something like that...moreover, these were human avatara of god (again, belief) and these avataras had kids (lava and kusa) and hanuman always followed rama 'wherever' he went :).
Seventh one...I can see sita here sitting on hanuman's tail, but where did you see that she is aroused? Has MFH written a caption saying she is a sex maniac...Here you are bending it too much for your needs...that is all what i can say...How can you say that the sita in the picture is aroused (I really wonder)...
Eighth and ninth pictures of mother and daughter...Like all of you said and challenged...will somebody draw their mother and daughter (who are very much real in the real material world and not a belief) naked??? Also, when you draw something with a model, what you call the drawing is the model's name...so we have to find the sourashtrian model that ravi varma used to draw his paintings and call that name to these pictures...that is why there is no face featured in these paintings of MFH, he has not used a model here...When he drew his mother or daughter, they are the models and he drew then with that perspecive..a caricature view...
I have been following this thread and from the first day my doubts are these. I do not call myself a pseudointellectual and actually I didnt know about all these things ayyappadas and all were pointing out. even i came to see these pictures first through this blog...but the comments that were written are not befitting the illustration, which anybody, intellectual, pseudo, or whoever, can find out for themselves...
There are umpteen number of stories in our culture itself...of the four guys (deaf, dumb,blind..) who described an elephant...
Maybe you got the pictures with those captions, but please verify that the caption shows is fitting the picture...
Moreover all these paintings were there for years...and in 1996 or so itself these came out from his personal collection, and all the hullabulla was made then, now after 10 years, why are you taking these up again...
I know your answer...because now he is going to be given an award by the Kerala Government which is now a Communist one. Genuinely anybody will have a doubt here, if they also find abovesaid observations correct, whether you are against MFH or the Government.
Kala pettennu kelkum munpe kayar edukkan poya aaline anu enikku orma varunnathu seeing these many positive comments here.
Ayyappadas,
You said,
"The only point was while you can disagree and even declare that openly(again that is freedom of expression), you don't have , in general, the right to force your arguments into an action. It is not I, who say this is, but this is a basic pillar of democrazy as I have understood. We need not agree, we can agree to disagree, but we cannot force all those who disagree to agree."
A:
WHAT's the meaning in keeping on arguing without any action?. The argument happens because of differences or public's disagreement over Governments decisions, inaction or provoking actions. For every issue the government cannot do a public poll to make a decision.
The action should very much depend on the wish and will of the people,if it is not so the government faces protest as what happens in this issue.Is it democratic for a government to take decisions ignoring peoples protest? What is more important ? An award to a person who has hurt millions ? What purpose does that serve in bestowing such an award ? Public service?
Why does parlimentarians create ruckus in parliament demanding removal from records any insulting (denigration for them) remarks of their leader (living or dead) ? Why they consider it denigratory and why should it be removed from records? Is everything solved amicabily through agreement & disagreement in the Parliament?
You said,
"There is a difference, however subtle but very clear, between action, call for action and expression of a view. Otherwise all naxalite activities are legitimate too."
A:
TO answer this, let me take the example of the poor tribals in Kerala. They were so innocent, exploited by the political parties, their women raped, false cases framed against their men.They neighter knew what's happening in India nor were they aware of their rights being citizens of the largest democracy.
Fed up & deeply pained by the exploitations against them they tried to convey their problems to the government (let's say they expressed their views) . No result !
The exploitations continued with the governemnt turning a deaf ear to their woes.They realised the need for action, as in every case they united and called for action.
It ended up with political parties approching them with promises just during elections with a view on their minute-yet-real vote bank.
As of now,it is suspected by the government that some of them are getting involved in Naxalite activites.
If they turn Naxalites,who is to be blamed?
The goverments enthusiasm to award Hussain would have been used for matters that help such people.
When expressions of view is ignored it demands call for action.
Inactive and just expressing your views is meaningless.
You said,
"It was my opinion that these paintings (if you consider them denigrate) as "ignorable" and yours was that it is not"
A:
IT was/is your opinion to ignore the paintings.I opined its ignorable an 'assumed' remark by the Pope because he will never denigrate any religion or even athiests, vulgurly . Such a comparison is meaningless. He may call athiests sinners, he may say Hinduism is idolatry, but he is sensible & civilised enough not to
use vulgar means of denigration .
He will never make references to Hindu deities by name or make vulgar remarks.
You said:
"But important question is , forget communists, why should Mr. X, impose his views up on his adult son/daughter? I personally wouldn't like to do that in my life, whoever it is son/daughter/wife/parents etc."
"There are no born non-believers in our society. Most of them move away from thiesm after witnessing the hypocrisy of religious structures and bigotary; some of them might preserve an idea of God and some might move further away."
A:
WHAT a joke ! Nobody is born a non-believer? Why? What about the children of those communist leaders ? They are born in a family where the parents are non-believers. So,probably they should have accepted religion in later life? They moved away from Atheism after witnessing the hypocricy of the so-called atheists?
Your remark to forget communists gives me reason for doubt about your political inclinations as it seems you wish not to bring them in the picture.
I remember in my teenage one of my neighbours from North India tied a Rakhi on my hand and the so-called gaurdians of secularism in my locality took me for a fundamentalist & even threatened me to remove it. I was not aware at that time what a Rakhi was & never knew it can turn one to a fundamentalist !.
You say you won't impose your views on others,whether it be your son/daughter/wife/parents. You were objecting to others views strongly and trying all these days to imply that what you say is right and if this happens in a blog anybody can imagine how you will deal such matters at home.
You said,
"Hmm.., but that sounds spurious to me for it is human that a person never wishes to think and plan for his death."
A:
Isn't it an attempt to dilute the point ?
You said,
"And a non-believer could be present in the ceremony because he/she is father/mother/relative/close friend and that is a compromise out of love and care (not because of a sudden fear of God); there is no question of betraying stands there; the person is not changing his views too."
A:
If he means what he say & claim to be open in expressing views what prevents this non-believer express his view of dissent? Isn't that hypocrisy?
You said,
"Just looking at the history of humanity so far: who made all the bloody wars? who were the most brutal dictators (exceptions might be Stalin/Mao)? In what name is the maximum amount of blood spilled on earth?"
A:
There has been all kinds of war,religion was a prominent issue in many of them, agreed. The exceptions are not just Stalin/Mao. In a world without religions the war will be for other reasons and may be even brutal. The bloodshed may be to suppress & contain religions or believers of God.
You said,
"There is no contradiction as that statement was implied at societal laws and mannerisms where no well defined amendment mechanism exist. Subjective it is, but Democrazy have an amendment mechanism which if the electorate wishes be utilised"
A:
Earlier you said, "If todays law is anachronistic and society stagnant a person might need to even break it to prove a point."
AND
"I never said you need to come down to my concept, but that your protest is irrelevant according to me and going beyond democratic ways to do it, is obviously unethical "
A:
Your explanation remains contradictory. You state, breaking a law to prove a point if necessary is OK and you also say,"your protest is irrelevant according to me and going beyond democratic ways to do it, is obviously unethical ". The contradiction is evident.
You said,
"Can you put clearly what your actual premises are? Or is it that you too stand for relativism, in which case you should be ready to consider that liberty for Hussain too. "
A:
When we protest against something you protested against the protests and called me for a debate.It is clear from what I have reacted and responded what my actual premises are. It is you who act ignorant now of what I stand for and tries to cling on with baseless ,meaningless arguments with the same parroting supporting Hussain. What ever I stand for I have made it clear in the previous comments. Still if you just want to continue with your parroting for Husaains freedom of expression, it just shows your only thought or idea is to meddle in this blog aimless and meaningless.
This is how you responded to Rahuljis challenge (numerous times)
for an open debate :
"I fear a public debate with you, because the first rule of a debate is mutual respect, arguments first and no slogn shouting. I have not seen any of these basic ethics from your side. So why trust you first of all? Then I cannot come for a public debate for very technical reasons- I am staying more than 2000km away from Kerala."
IT IS VERY EVIDENT THAT YOU KNOW VERY WELL WHERE YOU STAND AND YOUR FEAR IS NOT OF DISTRUST AS YOU CLAIM. TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE OR ELSE QUIT RATHER THAN TALK NONSENSE IN HIDING.
Dear Mr.Hitman,
Did Hussain give those explanations that you gave for those paintings ? He should have done that atleast as an explanation to defend his cause.The creator doesn't know to explain his creation?
He apologised ? Why ? He can apologise only if he realise his mistake. He apologised for something he did not do ?
Delhi High Court Judge Justice Kapoor criticised Hussain about his paintings in his judgmenent Is that without reason ?
The paintings were done in 1996, right. All the hullabaloo was made then, right. May be the protests subsided with time. Why do you think it became a topic again? Rahul or all the protesters just dug it up? Don't you think the governments decision to award him is the reason for the protests?
If you wish to see negative comments the positive ones seems disappointing.
Kaala pettu ennu kettu aarum coir eduthittilla.
@hitman,
Yet another dump argument, still can you identify and recognize the things around you? i'm doubted in that.
Anuj, hitman is a ayyappadasan prototype.
ayyappadas has lost the directions because of his blind reading.
( Andhamaya "Vaaayana').
pinnne...ini hitman vannitu ini MF Hussain aano ithu varachathu ennu vare chodichu kalayum...better to ingnore such kind of arguments, and let them read this entire blog from the begining...
..and one more thing, i have a humble request to the greatest 'Readers' here...
You should read an author called Taslima. she is only person writing about Hindu population going down from 25 % to 4 % in bangladesh due to ethnic cleansing.
and we had seen how the most generous people responded to that.
Why you are still pretending my dear friend? who gave you a name like 'ayyappadasan'? i thought it was a proud hindu name. what a controdiction, even hindu ppl also support to abuse their icons, nobody can save you guys.
You should visit this site, at least once in your lifetime.
http://www.iish.org/
To know about, whats indian culture, what is meant by hindu, what is the value of hindu culture, whats mean by tradition, whats the concepts behind the customs & beliefs etc...
look, even i'am not belongs to hindu community,i'm a great fan of IISH. and Dr.Gopalakrishnan. he conducting researches on hinduism and science of its traditions.
you should know your roots, once before hanging up on 'thus capital and 'viplava chinthakal'
Jai hind.
Dear Rahul Eashwar,We just have few days left before MFH's award ceremony and you see for yourself that you have enough supporters!Art has meaning when it reaches common man.A common man does not understand profound statements and concepts.His Highness Raja Ravi Varma's painting reached common poeple and most of us relate to the images of Gods & Godesses ,described in Ramayana and Mahabarata through his pictures.The recent generation might think of Rama as image of actor Ram Govil and actor Deepika as Sita Mata.When I think of Jesus Christ or Mother Mary,I remember the powerful paintings,I dont know who drew it either.It reached the masses,irrespective of religion.Honestly,when I think of Islam,I remember the beautiful painting of the sacred place in Haj.In my childhood and even now,I liked to see horses gallop.I used to imagine,if horses had wings!After 30 years,in Milan,I found a painting of a jet black horse flying across fire flapping his wings!This ,I feel is artistic imagination.If I were MFH,I would have painted a horse with wings,when that imagination stuck me.Alas! I can draw an apple rightThis painting might not reach all,but to few who are imaginative.There are yet few people who can see images among clouds, visualise emotions from nature and see things which you and me cannot see.That is abstract.Such images are seen in the modern art.I do not understand that a bit.It looks good,due that powerful combination of colour.Does it reach a common man?It might reach people with such innate qualities to view things from different perspective.When I ponder as a common man,I checked myself if I would view a nude picture of just anybody in public..sitting in a aircraft or bus?My answer is NO.How about all of you?Would I watch a porn movie in a DVD player in the sitting room,along with all people around,sipping tea? My answer is NO.Would I want to buy on of MFH's art on Bharat Mata to give it to my school as an alumini member would I do it?I will NOT.Someone had question Rahul on the caption.A naked woman(whoever it is)painted across the landscape of India,if it is not Bharat Mata,then it represents 'Woman of India'.Women in India are 'real' people and nobody would debate if they are 'real' or 'unreal'.I would like to take it one step more and apprach the women liberation movement in India.Rahul,Please help me with this.The most successful and powerful women of the world are now in India than elsewhere and I strongly oppose anyone depiciting Indian Women 'nude'.Today,Indian women get respected for their wisdom and intelligence and I feel our women get respected more outside India than within the country.Even if pictures do not have a caption,the nude pictures,atleast I see clearly are the pictures of women in India.All of us know how an Indian woman looks compared to the women of the west!NO ONE DARES TO HAVE A FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION on painting women of India like this!Rahul,Please send a letter to the Chief Minister of Kerala protesting the handing over of the prestigious award to MFH and all of us will sign in to support you.
"Your remark to forget communists gives me reason for doubt about your political inclinations as it seems you wish not to bring them in the picture..." - Non-believers not only include communists. Communists form a very small part of it, if you are aware. May be 50% of them might have a leftist inclination (that is not being communist). Even some groups of neo-liberals, liberals, centrists, anarchists, a thumbing majority of people involved in fundamental science research, and even traditionalists (some claim the legacy of Charvakas) are. So whose turn was it bring politics irelevent to the discussion. That was just an instance of your political stand. I could have put a few words about RSS/Sangh parivar here (about which I am very much convinced), but that is simple deviation from the topic.
Now, as a proponent of the idea that within a subjective framework of broad (I have my opinions about how broad, but certinly broader than yours) societal "rules", morals and values are relative. I don't want to impose my rules up on my children/wife/friends. Therefore if the son of a believer turns non-believer or vise-versa, there is no subject of wonder for me. Religion (the structure of it) according to me is a game of exploiting the inherent fear in human beings. There are many such structures that has evolved from this psychological phenomena. Like any structure it might serve a few purposes, but jeoperdises many critical and larger (futuristic) purposes. People can very well live without it and live quite well and ethically. There are no issues if somebody chooses to be religious; he/she , according to me is not a fool. We are just different by our perspectives. I disagree when things quite remarkably explainable by science are twisted by religions and used to attract masses (Makaravilaku and the milk drinking Ganesha idol etc.). That is it.
"Isn't it an attempt to dilute the point ? "- Not at all. So you argue that Nayanar should made a will before his death?
If needed I can quote 10 hypocrisies of celebrated religious folk for every single incident pertaining to a non-believer. Does that serve a point or a proof (statistically speaking)? Now since you belong to that group who "claim not to poke nose into other sect's affairs", aren't you going inconsistent with it and by that measure hypocratic? After all it was your own stand and claim. Now don't interpret it as I got agitated by the name Nayanar. He is not my GOD. Nayanar was just a human being who too was a shade of grey, atleast somebody far better than you (that I have found from this thread).
"It is clear from what I have reacted and responded what my actual premises are..." - Your stands, if that is what I correctly guessed, are ofcourse clear while your debate points (or methodology) against your own stand. You were using relative arguments through out while you did not stand for it by and large. When as per your definition, x=1 (exactly) and you argue using 0 < x < 2, they are two different things.
"You should read an author called Taslima. she is only person writing about Hindu population going down from 25 % to 4 % in bangladesh due to ethnic cleansing." - I HAVE READ BOOKS OF TASLIMA AND I SUPPORT HER CAUSE AND WORKS, TRUE TO MY STAND. NOW DO YOU IS THE QUESTION?
"Why you are still pretending my dear friend? who gave you a name like 'ayyappadasan'? i thought it was a proud hindu name. what a controdiction, even hindu ppl also support to abuse their icons, nobody can save you guys..." - By your standards you are denigrating an individual with this statement, how hypocritical... hahaha .... Anyway, my parents are Hindu religion believers and I am not. I am a Hindu as its original meaning stands- the part of culture that exists on the other side of river Sind. And be aware that you are not the ultimate judge whether my vayana is 'andham' or otherwise. Atleast I have read as much of Indian philosophy as I could by this time, and much before Das Capital or any other book. I have atleast read that enough to understand that you do not stand for the broad and diverse entity known as Indian culture or philosophy.
AND ABOUT YOUR DEBATE. IT IS NOT PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE FOR ME. I AM A PG STUDENT OF A PRESTIGIOUS (INTER)NATIONAL INSTITUTE QUITE FAR AWAY FROM KERALA. CALL THAT BY THE NAME YOU FIND FIT. AFTER ALL WHAT HAS WENT IN HERE IS DEBATE I SUPPOSE. WHEN YOU SAY, WHAT I SAY IS NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING I COULD DO. OR ELSE YOU SHOULD ARTICULATE.
It's not for the words to comment....but time for action ....wakeup HINDUS...come and protest against this blunder...Let we can put a fullstop to all this permanently
VANDE MATHARAM.......
Ayyappa Das ,I have gone through your words and clearly understand that you love the art of MFH.I respect your love of that particular art and the artist.We in India,who hold the nation's pride bigger than our own self and our own interest would not like this art to get any recognition.If you do not feel so and consider it as pure art,please go ahead and buy either the originals or fakes of his art and enhance the decor of your drawing room.No body will stop you.That is your freedrom.Our freedom is to oppose what we think jointly as inappropriate.Rahul is successful in getting this joint opinion and we are confident that this perverted creation will meet its destiny-DUSTBIN.
"Yes both of us argue from our perspectives. But who is calling for action?"
Talking without action is impotance. Just talking, no action ! Keeping on talking leads us nowhere. I am not calling for any action that harms anybody. Nothing is to be gained by honouring Hussain with an award, but it hurts so many. For those who are hurt it is like putting salt to the injury. If you are not hurt by the paintings, does it hurt you if he is not given this award? What are you trying to do by keeping on supporting the award ? For what cause ? You are the one who is tring to impose your views on others. This blog calls for to Protest M F Hussain. If you do not protest why the hell are you hanging around here with your views? Isn't it unwanted interference ? If you don't believe in Church, avoid that place, if you don't believe in rituals avoid them. Why meddle in and keep on voicing your dissent? Is that what you learned through reasoning ? And you talk about not imposing your thoughts on your family !
"Religion (the structure of it) according to me is a game of exploiting the inherent fear in human beings"
I have nothing but pity for you dear son. You are ignorant of religions & I just wish you read the scriptures after removing your shades of critisism.
"I disagree when things quite remarkably explainable by science are twisted by religions and used to attract masses"
That is up to you, but we are not talking about anything unexplainable by science.
Still, do you think everything unexplainable by science does not exist ? That is the thought of an egoistic mind. How much has science explained so far? Many things explained by science has been later proven wrong and a new explanation considered as right. Has man fully studied even his own mind ? What explanation you have for Parapsychology which is a science with most of the things covered by it as unexplained? How much do you think has man studied and defined? How much is left? Where have you set the standards? What's the criterea for such a cunclusion ?
Yes, you cleverly used the word 'remarkably', but still even what we see is different from what others see. When nothing is identical in these world how can we say the things we believe remarkably explained are true ? Isn't that too an assumption?
I have said this before but still wish to mention that again.
JAMES IRWIN,THE MOONWALKER & CREW MEMBER OF APPOLLO 15 AFTER RETURNING FROM THE MOON SAID, " FELT THE POWER OF GOD AS I'D NEVER FELT IT BEFORE"
KALPANA CHAWLA TOOK WITH HER AN IDOL OF VINAYAK FOR HER MARATHON SPACE STAY.
I don' think Ayyappadas has experianced more than those people . Most scientists of the past and present are believers of God and adhere to some religious faith.
Your inflated ego may say "I believe what I believe is true" and that is of no concern for anybody.Please desist from unwanted interference in matters that are of no concern for you.
" So you argue that Nayanar should made a will before his death?"
I don't care if he made a Will or not, but it is ridiculous that he didn't even let his own family know what he is standing for !
(Critisising Nayanar is hurting you, it seems)
"Your stands, if that is what I correctly guessed, are ofcourse clear while your debate points (or methodology) against your own stand."
Believe I might be having similar views about you from what you convey .
" You were using relative arguments through out while you did not stand for it by and large"
You fail to realise even when it is conveyed through relative arguments. That makes you believe I did not stand for it.
" WHEN YOU SAY, WHAT I SAY IS NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING I COULD DO. OR ELSE YOU SHOULD ARTICULATE."
Reading all your comments from the begining is enough proof for what I have said.
The Sad fact about India in this new century is that
1) No where in any nation in the world except India, You will find so many people who doesnt love their mother land
2) No where in the world except India, you will see People so tolerant, some times over tolerant, tolerating anti-nationals in their own nation.
3) No where in the world, you will hear people talking rubbish about their own nation and its heritage, also claiming that "they are broad-minded"
But even then there are true Musalman, Christian and Hindu brothers here to protect, to uphold and pass on India's great heritage.
I pray to Almighty to give my mother land and all my dear Bharatvasi...self-respect, secularist harmony and love for the nation
Hello chettai enthina ente post dele cheythe....Njan terri vallom paranjo......:)
Dear Jayakrishnam,
The people who voice their protest here are doing it not because they don't have other things to think about.
We all are involved in many other activites like social welfare, womens rights, child welfare, poverty eradication to name a few.
If we have a family, we run it by what we earn through hard work. There will be many things that we do for the family's welfare. The childs education, health, the various bills, purchases, and last but not the least donations, charity work and such services.We may have problems at home,we may have problems with the neighbour, problems some which we ignore and some that we try to solve. Still, will we ignore it if somebody try to molest, or molest, our mother,sister or daughter ? Will we say we have more serious issues at home, so this need to be ignored?
Thanks dear brother if you read this.
mr jayakrishnan
u r an idiot. I think u r a product of "timepass" by your parents or your mother and someone(is it mfh..?)
lol.. u dont have any other things to do in this world ? .......
an artist have his own view to the subject,.. think with ur brain dude,,, so do ur gods wear shifon sarees ? or ram wear jeans n shirts ?
haaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Dear Anwar,
Please read all the comments from the begining,hope that will help open your eyes. Please respect others sentiments.
Dear Rajan,
Wonder what you are tring to prove. Makaravilakku & Chengannur Bhagavathi is not the topic here.If you wish to talk about that please start your own blog & let people express their views there.
All I have to say is, please leave those believers alone. You may believe what you think is true, so does those devotees. It is no matter of concern for you unless it hurts somebody .
hussain is a great artist no doubt. but is he awarded by gov for these paintings alone ,i doubt . abt these paintings i feel its nt the nudity which is the issue but the gestures and it can hurt anyone(not necessarily an indian)who hav a prior idea abt sita ,rama etc it hurt me too
a fact now hussain is going to receive dis award bcoz i feel the protest is not that strong
@Rajan
You said Hindus destroyed Budhist temples and killed lots of budhists and sikhs; its very sad to see people still barking the stories which british made to create rift between religions. Later the communist used these same stories to get the support of minorities.
It was King Asoka, who later became a budhist and converted lots of temples to budh vihars. Sri Sankaracharya only tried to spread the message of Hinduism. He was not against any other religions.
In Guruvayoor, dalit krishna is not inside any prison. For every thing in this world there are certain rules and regulations. For priesthood also such rules are there. If a dalit is ready to practice those rules(strict vegitarianism, veda adhyanam, sandhya vandanam etc) he is most welcome as the priest. How many of them are willing to live such a life ??? Most of them are aiming only at the revenue which guruvayoor temple is getting.
I am deeply disturbed by these pictures, but how can we prevent him from getting the award, if we try to have a mass petition, it will be accused as suppressing freedom of expression
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