TO ALL CHRISTIANS, HINDUS, MUSLIMS, SECULARISTS, COMMUNISTS and all people who have a heart, who loves the nation and her heritage, who believes in ethics and values.
M.F.Hussain is trying to create problems between Hindus & Muslims.
He is trying to create communal tension and clashes. No true Musalman brother will do this, no true hindus or christians or true communists or any one who wants communal harmony, and hindu-muslim unity will not do this. Any responsible, nation loving Indian who understands India and its heritage will never do this.
"Greater the freedom, Higher the responsibility. M.F.Hussain should have used the freedom of expression in a much more responsible manner" - Maharashtra Court
I request you to go through these and react... React very strongly. Vande Mataram
(These are only some pictures, There are many more vulgar and obscene pictures, this is deliberate insult)
Hussain claims "Rape of India" is a response to terror attacks in Mumbai.
In America there were terrorist attacks, will he paint Rape of America ?
In Pakistan terrorist attacks happen twice every week, why doesnt he paint Gang Rape of Pakistan ?
Holy Mecca was attacked by terrorists once, will he paint Rape of Mecca ?
We consider India as holy as a temple, church or mosque. Thats why Mahatma Gandhiji
once installed "Bharat Matha Temple". We see Nation as Mother, as Goddess.
We cannot be too soft on either terrorits or anti national painters like Hussain.
Sita Matha and Sri Rama are the oldest symbols existing in this part of the continent. Is painting the private parts of Sita Devi justified in the name of freedom of expression. Hussain knows that painting these things will create controversy and get him publicity. But 'using' these sacred symbols for selling and getting publicity is cheap and cunning.
Hey Ram were the last words of Gandhiji. Rama Rajya to him was the ideal state where all people and religions lived in harmony. Rama was 'purushottama', the ideal man.
60 years of Independence is morally the journey from Mahatmaji's Ram and Sita to Hussain's Ram and Sita
Dear Brothers and Sisters, My name is Rahul Easwar.
I usually dont write blogs nor am I a person who is very much into internet. But for the the past some days I was very disturbed about the above pictures. I was extremely sad and depressed over the above pictures. How can we allow a person to insult national, historic and cultural symbols and be happy and okay about it ???
It is something concerning you, me our future generations and our nation as such.
Please protest this move by the Kerala Government. The above pictures offends the national pride, dignity of women, religious feeling, secular and ethical fabric of our nation.
Silence is golden, but not always; many a times it becomes a sin
React, for we all have mother, sister, wife and family.
Let us take a pledge on this great day, that these kind of hatred creating cultureless elements will not be tolerated.
LET US SAY THAT WITH PRIDE THAT No one will be allowed to disturb the moral, cultural and national fabric of the nation. May our hearts rise to the heavens on this Independence day and declare who ever insults national pride and our culture will not be spared.
I HAVE HEARD SOME PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL,
SO-CALLED "LIBERAL" COMMENTS SUPPORTING M.F.HUSSAIN . LET ME REMIND " NO PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD IS "LIBERAL" and "BROAD MINDED" about his own MOTHER, SISTER, WIFE and DAUGHTER..
I CHALLENGE ANY ONE TO BE "LIBERAL" about THEM
(with immense apologies to their family).
WE LOVE OUR NATION AND CULTURE HIGHER THAN OUR FAMILY AND OURSELVES...WHAT WILL WE DO IF SOME ONE PAINTS OUR FAMILY MEMBERS NUDE, SEX MANIAC and VULGAR ???
...WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO M.F.HUSSAIN ???
LET M.F.Hussain not receive the RAJA RAVI VARMA award on September 17th 2007
AND WE HAVE WON...Kerala High Court and Maharasthra Court came to uphold Justice, Hon'ble Kerala High Court stopped the award and Maharashtra court issued arrest warrant to Hussain
Jai Hind
1,364 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1364 Newer› Newest»Hi Rahul..
Being an Indian, iwill protest against this kind of art by MFH. though he is a well respected and recognised artist, this kind of paintings ARE NOT acceptable.. we shall protest and this award will NOT go to him..
@ shilpa
i understand u respect MF hussain and his talent. but if u can enjoy the piece of naked bharath matha nad sits and saraswathi, i've nothin to say.. BUT if u don know who Raja ravi varma is and u are tryin to vouch for MF, please leave, coz u don seem to undersand the seriousness of the issue being discussed here.. and if u think nobel prize is the ultimate, and raja ravi varma award is jus another award, i say go take a hike... do ur research before commenting..
Someone please go back and read what renjith-times commented. It makes sense. I am a practising Hindu and I have no problem if anyone has the freedom of expression to question or attack my religion's myth. Freedom of expression is just that. Hinduism is not about rama or Krishna or Sita. They are just so many symbols. And believing too much in them leads to things like the' Babri Masjid demolition'. Hinduism has survived 5000 yeras; it has survived the intellectual and moral onslaught of Gautama Buddha's philosophy, it has survived the Hun invasions, it has survived the Muslim invasions, it has survived western philosophy. What is nude pictures of deities by M.F Hussain gonna do? I suggest people who consider themselves Hindus read the criptures more carefully and try to understand their own religion. Which is not conservative, patriarchal and sexo-phobic as it is painted. It is a most liberal religion. Think of statements from Swami Vivekanandfa like these: When asked whether he though Krishna really existed he said that he hoped not, the Hindus had enough Gods already. Or when he asked youngsters to spend less time with the Geetha and more on the foootball field. When he says "The sanyasin stands on the head of the Geetha." coming back to freedom of expression, one of the most famous of Vivekananda's statements "Liberty is the only condition for growth.", I think hits the mark.
we are not here to debate Hinduism, Vedas or Purana - as none of us has that stature yet - our quarrel is with M F Hussains paintings and only that should be debated. ". Since the subject matter of Hussain's offensive paintings are Hindu Gods, how can that be kept out of the discussion? And who decides who has the stature to discuss the puranas or the vedas? Is it supposed to be taken on blind faith? It is the only the individual who has the right to decide on truth. Not any book. No book is sacred by the basis of its being. It is sacred only if it contains truths that the individual can grasp, verify and use for growth. If this is not the case religion of whatever kind doesn't have a leg to stand on and it is better to chuck all holy books into the sea. On the lines of Periyar.
Namaste Prongs...
India has survived attacks from China and Pakistan, does that mean if Mr.Hussain burns Indian flag, we should take it lightly.
Symbolism and imagery are important part of any culture or even political party. It is not because there is something "SACRED" in symbols itself, but there is a great history and legend of people who sacrificed a lot for that particular culture and spirit.
CAN WE say that we can burn INDIAN FLAG, after all it is a piece of painted cloth.??? NO ....because through tiranga we see lakhs of soldiers who die for their nations, the great sacrifice of our freedom fighters who gave up their family and life for us, We see our culture and history's pride in it. A PIECE OF CLOTH has no culture and history, BUT IF THAT PIECE OF CLOTH IS A "FLAG", "SYMBOL" it has its own legend. RIGHT?
THE POINT PRONGS, You are missing is that..." All actors, artists, painters like controversy. It is through controversy people get noted easily. Hussain got to fame not only because of his painting, BUT THROUGH CLEVERLY creating controversies. THe same is about Taslima, who insults Islam consciously to get "MARTYRDOM" because the western media supports 'anti-islam' sentiments. These cheap publicity seekers like Hussain and Taslima enjoys the controversies and fights in their name, that is their goal. And we people without understanding this debate. They should be legally punished so that no persons uses and misuses "religion" to get fame. Jai Hind
visit following
http://kpsukumaran.blogspot.com/2008/08/blog-post_21.html
great my dear brother..........
we r all there withu u.......
kerala govt.....play drama(vote bank)............
any way dearrr...............great work.........
vandematharammm...........
bharath matha ki jai
chila ambalangalil varachu vechittula sree krishnanteyum tozhimarudeyum paintingukal ethinalum moshamane.... rahul athotunum kanditile... koodutal ariyanamangil pls mail me asifsfi@gmai.com. i will send the address of that temple. go and see......
hoh,its one year..can't you guys just move on? there are much more pressing issues in our country like flood in Bihar, inflation, harthal and bandh etc. Some paintings - who cares? Rahul - if you could mobilise atleast some people against chronic Bandh and Harthal which silently kills our economy, I would appreciate..
Bye
Zen
God is love
God is everything
All of God's beautiful creatures are naked
we all come into this glorious world naked
Clothes are a wonderful invention
they keep us warm and dry
they honor traditions and cultures around the world
they also save us from feelings of shame
they keep us covered from eyes of those who are unable to see God's perfection and have lewd or evil thoughts - those who spread hatred and lay blame fueled by their own shame for their own thoughts - they do not see beauty - they see the reflection of their own minds - poor souls!
Do Gods and Goddesses
need to feel warm?
Do they feel shamed by their heavenly forms?
Are they above human frailties?
They are glorious beings above such things.
God is love and Beauty
This is all I see in the paintings
To Blessings::
"All of God's beautiful creatures are naked
we all come into this glorious world naked" Right???
Then could you & your family come naked in front of the public.
We want to enjoy God's creation & beauty!!!
mr.blessing!wonderful comment...so can u tell me sir that if anyone sees his family members nude,wont he get some physiological change?if u dont hav it,go and consult a doctor!AND i believe my mother,father,my teacher and GOD are alike and i hate those people who defame them.
like always communists have excuses...the madness they had during our independence struggle[who can forget their attitude towards quit india movement!],the commentable loyalty they had towards china when they invaded our north east, and what not?now they are playing'iam the protectors of the minority game'when some terrorist organisations were playing hide and seek at wagamon,they were pretending to be asleep.they know its better to destroy hinduism before stepping on to other religions and now they are trying to be islam -friendly.lets see how far it goes.
I agree that M.F.Hussain is a Hindu hater and has no right to humilate Hindu Gods and Godesseses. I invite good Indian painters to paint hussain's daughter, hussain's mother, muslim fakirs, kings and queens in nude - to show them in 'pure' form! I will sponsor such paintings in public exibhitoons as well as openly post them on my websites. Any takers?
If Indian Govenment can not do the job of punishing a psuedo artist like Hussain, we the people of India should do it.
jayhind,
yeh gaddar jinda he yani yehamari namardki pehli nisani he,hamarehindustanme tin ma he 1)bharatmata 2)gaymata 3)hamarijanam denevali ma.pehle vali ki ejjat lutijarahi he or dusri kati ja rahi he.tesri agarhamjage nahi,to tisri ka kya hogaap agar hindumard ho apme hindukranti ka khoon he to sochlo age kya karna he.mara nam himansu he muje saport karoge to eska sar me katunga.mera mobile number he9898365244.support chahtaho.vande mataram
jayhind,
yeh gaddar jinda he yani yehamari namardki pehli nisani he,hamarehindustanme tin ma he 1)bharatmata 2)gaymata 3)hamarijanam denevali ma.pehle vali ki ejjat lutijarahi he or dusri kati ja rahi he.tesri agarhamjage nahi,to tisri ka kya hogaap agar hindumard ho apme hindukranti ka khoon he to sochlo age kya karna he.mara nam himansu he muje saport karoge to eska sar me katunga.mera mobile number he9898365244.support chahtaho.vande mataram
Yes!! Milind is absolutely right, shilpa must visit to a psychiatrist for treatment. Creativity doesn't mean that you start hurting other's emotions and their culture. Do things in right the way. Gaining money through hurting others is the worst way. What the hell he done in his painting , didn't he has another options to show his creativity.
http://bigbracket.wordpress.com
Maqbool Fida Husain, India's most famous living artist, will not be able to return to India unless the hundreds of cases claiming he hurt "Hindu sentiment" are withdrawn, say experts despite a ruling from the country's supreme court clearing him of the charges.
The artist has been in self-imposed exile since January 2006, forced out by threats from Hindu groups enraged by his paintings of nude gods and goddesses. On Monday three supreme court judges considered whether his painting, Bharat Mata (Mother India), which depicts a nude woman on her knees creating the shape of a map of India, was sacrilegious.
The bench rejected the petition seeking prosecution for offending Hindus, saying it was a work of art and citing India's tradition of graphic sexual iconography.
"Does the sentiment of the petitioner get scandalized by the large number of photographs of erotic sculptures which are in circulation?" the judges asked. "It is an art like the sculptures. None get scandalized looking at the sculptures."
The artist, known in India as MF Husain, told the Associated Press: "At last, the dignity of Indian contemporary art has been upheld by the supreme court as expected." He could not be contacted today.
MF Husain put Indian modern art on the world map. By 2005 he was the highest paid painter in India with his work easily fetching $1m (£538,000).
However claims that he would be able to return home to India were in doubt. Last month MF Husain told the Guardian there were "3,000 legal cases which have been lodged against me in the past eight years".
Organisations that have long defended the painter said that rightwing Hindu groups could still keep "hounding Husain". "We welcome the court judgment," said Rajan Prasad of Sahmat, which last month put on an exhibition of Husain's work that was vandalised by Hindu activists.
"The problem is that this petition relates to just five cases quashed by the high court. The other cases stand. Even if you quash all the cases these guys can simply lodge more. Unless the executive takes a decision and changes the law to defend freedom of expression [MF Husain] will be in exile for years to come."
RAJAN SIR, WHY DO YOU KEEP ON LYING.
Or is it that you too are a hardcore leftist who believes lying is a part of PROPAGANDA.
1) NUDITY IS NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM
2) NUDITY IS NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM
THE PROBLEM IS DISTORTION AND WRONG DEPICTION
1) SITA as HAVING Sexual feelings to Hanuman
2) Hanuman enjoying SITA AND RAM HAVING 'private' moments.
3) the painting SHIVARATRI WHERE NANDI KESAN AND PARVATI is having physical relationship.
WHY DO YOU NOT SEE THOSE FACTS? WHY DO YOU DELIBERATELY LIE?
WHY DONT U UNDERSTAND HUSSAIN'S TECHNIQUE OF CREATING CONTROVERSY FOR HIS OWN PUBLICITY.?
You are too blinded by ideology. FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS GREATER. Liberty is greater, but responsibility is the greatest. Freedom should be with liberty and responsibility. The same is the case with Taslima.
Till that date when my mother land's name is Hindustan, Hussain will not be allowed to cause problems here. We value freedom, but along with responsibility and sensitivity. Jai Hind
really shocking............................!
very painful to see those pics.
First, people like shilpa should understand the limits of freedom and freedom of expression. We have freedom to live & let live but not to hurt others or others valuable sentiments or historical culture. Hussain is literally putting fire to hearts of the most culturous and religious people in the world and ofcourse he is expressing something, and that is his hate towards Hindu culture and Hindu Religion.
And with no doubt he already jumped into fire of hell.
I'd like to say one that his freedom hurts billions of Hindu's hearts and I am really pity on him that he has to pay for these one fine day.
God is great!
Hey ram!, the powerful word even expressed by Great Mahatma Gandhi, which will never be down by the few insects like Hussain.
Saw the pics today and my immediate reaction was that either M F Hussain has a very poor taste or has some ulterior motives...
We should respect other religions and their deity - irrespective of whether we consider them as GOD / Deity or not.
pseudointellectuals are ready to justify these vulgar paintings on the name of freedom of expression but they forget the cartoon controversy of prophet mohmad. this is nothing but hypocrasy. these are the same communist who banned the "Dwikhandita & Lajja" of tasleema. M.f hussain type people justy making fun and humiliation to hindu faith and hindu religion. it is possible to us b'cz we are divided on caste, region, and on linguistic line. this is high time for all hindus to united and defeat such anti-nation, anti-hindu and communal elements.
gr8 work...let dese sex maniacs b expelled frm d toplist..protect our culture
The freedom and rights of a single person is more important than the collective will of a people. The award was only stayed till all the petitions were dismissed and will be presented in due course with maximum security offered to him by our Govt. The Govt of Kerala. I have one request keep your religious narrow mindedness in your homes in the north and do not come with it to our soil. Soil stained by the blood of people who have fought against opression, of people who could see past the fascist policies and religious politics. A place where all three major communities live in peace. Here we respect the freedom of expression and individualism more than any other state in India. Here the books of Salman Rushdi are not banned, Davinci Code was screened, MF Hussain is hailed. Here we have complete separation from the religion and the state. Here we don't have draconian laws like in Gujarat preventing religious conversion. And this is not a trait when communists rule its the same when the Indian National Congress is in power as well. If the rest of the country has a problem with it well too bad then but radical nationalism will never gain a foothold in my state. Hail M.F Hussain one of India's greatest ever sons. Btw Gandhi having some opinion abt Ram doesn't mean we all have to share it.
M F Hussain, M & F do not stand for mother and father, here in his name. He does not understand how to respect society around him. The media has itself called him:
M= Madhuri F= Fida
He has definitely hurt prople, more so because he is learned enough to understand what he is doing.
More important question is " While illconceiving these caricatures , which audiance is he has been planng to address? "
A)Indian or B)who coerce Indians to convert thru Terror or Favour or C)maybe something else.
This is what should be discussed and brought out.This will throw light on his real character.
Only a few people wil come forward to take the responsibility to fight aganist the evils attacking our country. We call them also SOLDIERS. You are one among that..Best wishes for you and YUV HIND..We are with you rahul..lead from the front..
With love:
Viswaraj
its a nice one Rahul.. atleast someshould be there to rise voice against this. He trampled upon the basic norms of social behaviour.
It is absolutely an insult to the Great Raja RaviVarma to confer an award in his name to such a cheap minded prankster.wat shuld we do to avoid this award ?
Artistic Freedom all the way. Death to the narrow minded Ultra Nationalists.
mr.jumbo!
whats ur defenition of narrow mindedness?yes,may be we are narrow minded because we dont open our back door for the women mongers and nude painters.in the name of artistic freedom can anyone paint jesus christ or muhammed nabi nude?no ,they wont.because there are a lot of sword carriers in other religions whom you people call innocent victims of hindu fundamentalism.this is only a begining.A day will come wen hindustan will regain its glory...freedom from all pseudo-secularists.
Narrow Minded Radical Nationalism means the thing that is plaguing India at the moment. I am proud to be an Indian but i believe in peaceful co-existence of all religions and all nations. I believe in humanity rather than narrow borders of religions and nations. This kinda radical nationalism was prevalent in Europe for centuries and only after two world wars and the loss of millions of lives they realized the futility of it and decided to exist in peace. Pseudo Secularism, you say is the problem of India, its not I say its the increasingly naked fascism that has become our enemy. Fascism starts from glorification of the nation, Support of ur national policies whether right or wrong, disregard to individual rights etc, and we are really seeing the brunt of it. Its fed by economic growth ( which is largely because of our peaceful co operation between other nations ) and an increase in the military might ( it should act as a deterrent rather than an offensive weapon.) The corner stone of Indian democracy is its secularist nature, and to a lesser extent its freedom of expression. Our major shortcomings are governments lacking political will and being easily persuaded by regional pressure groups. Its time for our country to be governed as per the constitution and not as per emotion. And M.F Hussein, Salman Rushdi and Taslima Nasreen are all great intellect and the government of Kerala was well with in its constitutional rights to honour a great son of India M.F Hussain. The biggest threat we face is from myopic ultra nationalism and its the only thing that can lead to our countries downfall in this day and age. But most of our populace are not as radical as many posters here and they showed it to the world by voting out an immensely successfully NDA govt. in favour of the UPA because of the Gujarat atrocities. Jai Hind. Down Fascism and ultra nationalism.
I am a student of archaeology and Indian art history, and to my knowledge most Indian goddesses and gods were depicted nude at some stage..it only became less fashionable toward the middle ages. As per rig Veda the first goddess is aditi and her depictions are as follows. http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Newhomepage/shakti/lajjahGauri.html. IF any of you need information on naked Hindu goddesses or gods i will tell u the (cave,monument,sculpture,temple,place state etc.) and you can visit it and see for yourself. There is also a huge collection of bronzes from chola period in the Madras museum where the gods, goddesses are semi nude and further more in Tanjore.
@ pegasus
you asked if in the name of artistic freedom can anyone paint jesus christ or muhammed nabi nude? if any christian or muslim find it offensive,no,they cant paint because they dont have nude pics of jesus christ or muhammed nabi in their churches and mosques unlike hindus who have nude scriptures of their gods and goddesses in their temples.
m.f. hussain... mother fucker hussain.... fuck the asshole ma chod do saale katuwe ki....
HARAMI APNI MA BEHAN KI BANAYE AISI FOTO TO JAANU SAALE KA FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION SAALA PUSSYFACE
I am not anti-Hindu okay. I supported the Danish cartoons of the prophet as well as it was also a freedom of expression. Arts and movies depicting jesus badly are routinely screened across the christian world. We have to be more tolerant, ppl who don't like it shouldn't watch/ look into it. The freedom of ppl who like art should be respected.
mr.jumbo,
you are telling about fascism...read the word meaning.and can u tell me how it suits hindu nationalists? fascism-"Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, "bundle, (political) group," but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialismelling about fascism"
for anything and everything thats hindu ,now the communists and pseudo-secularists are using the word fascism.who is spreading violence? come to kerala...u can see buses burnt,cars overturned and innocent bus drivers made blind when the UDF rules and the LDF strikes...who is planting bombs and killing innocent people?
we wont say to kill M.F as he has painted our God nude..we dont issue a fatwa against him.we only say there is a limit to tolerance.secularism doesnt mean selling our religion and culture.There is a problem hinduism is facing now.There is ignorance among the masses regarding hindu philosophy and mythology.somebody is taking advantage of that ignorance to defame a culture and to get illicit publicity.
@ rahul,
u told me that hindu gods are painted nude only because the temples contain their nude pictures.u may be refering to the mural paintings...i doubt whether u r a hindu?hindus consider temples as places of worship and not as porn theatres.
was the prophets u mentioned earlier born with clothes on?And before christ,i dont think they had even invented clothes.these pictures were drawn by people of those times and nobody believes that it was done by the Gods themselves. But there is something called civilisation...from beasts to man.now we consider it inappropriate to walk around nude.so we will oppose hurting our religious sentiments and that too a man who knows nothing about our religion.
Okay Suggested Reading of texts for you Pegasus.
Indian Architecture Buddhist and Hindu by Percy Brown.
Indian Art and Architecture - Edith Tomoroy.
There are more books i can refer you to.
Temple is not a place for pornography, i agree with you totally, It is a place for worship and thats how it was intended the artists of the time made the nude sculptures because they were beautiful and they were praised for their artistic value more than anything else. Same with M.F Hussain the paintings are works of art nothing more nothing else.
And about fascism....Fascism is not what just Mussolini found in Italy, that's like calling only a particular brand of refrigerator 'fridge' (as it was there brand name) Fascism in a slightly different form was Nazism and there was Francos Fascist who called themselves republicans in Spain! You can call it whatever you want but the symptoms are the same the results will be the same as well. About LDF burning trucks and blinding drivers, actually burning buses and public property is not a good thing but to their credit the injuries/deaths during protests in kerala are far less than those else where. Look at MNS and Raj thackerey arrest fiasco
Hello Jambo,
I think you need to read much more and visit places too.
For your knowledge, I want to tell you
1) There is no existence of any Nude Bharatmata painting or creation in world, neither in temples nor in art history.
2) There is no Saraswti posed wrong in any temple in world.
3)I also want to say .. what you see outside in khajuraho or in any other other temples, there are NO RAM, NO HANUMAN at all.
You just want to fight and prove yourself with your idiotic logic, and misinterpreted readings.
Just refer to the texts i asked you to. There is nude Saraswati sculptures.
And Bharat Mata is a relatively new concept, we can concur with Bhumi Devi of the past, and there are many instances where Bhumi Devi is depicted nude, especially as a nude figure dangling from Varahas Snout. This is a famous sculpture of the Gupta Period.
There are also certain Puranas which refer towards Brahma's Kama towards Saraswathy who was his daughter.
I am not the one who's bending facts and suffers from a lack of knowledge here.
Bikaner has a nude Saraswathy you can visit and see it if you want to. Its from the solanki period c 1200.
And Please Read this Excellent Article in the Hindu : http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1511/15110990.htm
I agree most sculptures outside Khajurao are not gods or goddesses.
Saying that have you been to places like Tanjore, Mamallapuram, Kanchipuram etc, Have you been the caves of Ellora ?
In these places the figures depicted are of gods and godesses, you can see half naked siva, parvati, kali, vishnu and lakshmi amongs others. Some figures are fully naked as well.
Don't talk like an art historian by just sitting in ur armchair and reading propaganda shit
dear jumbo,
you may be having a doctorate on'nude paintings in hinduism-old and new',but dont propagate the virtues of nudism.Decades back,our forefathers didnt even consider covering their private parts.But now we have adopted clothes as a part of bieng civilized.you know- there is only one sexual perversion that is punishable according to indian law..that is exhibitionism.As a part of getting sexual gratification,the so called new generation painters[eventhough they look pretty old] are painting hindu Gods nude.may be it is a kind of sexual perversion or they are channeling the hatred to hinduism in a covert way.this cannot be allowed.
you can call all brands of refrigerators as fridge,its okay.but can you call a snail a snake?[both crawl?]when there are lakhs of poisonous snakes roaming around,you people have your lips plastered.when thousands of militants are recruited from a peaceful place like kerala,people like you call for human rights.and you keep on targetting the snails,so that the snakes help lending you their poison every five years.
what kind of artistic talent have you found on those obscene paintings?have you seen paintings of raja ravi varma?nowadays it is fashionable either to write something nobody will understrand and grab a booker prize or to paint someone else's deity or a film actress nude and get awarded by pseudo-secularists.its no better than the tissue paper westerners use to wipe their sh*ts!
mr.jumbo,
you know hinduism only from the periphery...try to learn more...The Khajuraho temples do not contain sexual or erotic art inside the temple or near the deities; however, some external carvings bear erotic art. Also, some of the temples that have two layers of walls have small erotic carvings on the outside of the inner wall. There are many interpretations of the erotic carvings. They portray that, for seeing the deity, one must leave his or her sexual desires outside the temple. They also show that divinity, such as the deities of the temples, is pure like the atman, which is not affected by sexual desires and other characteristics of the physical body. It has been suggested that these suggest tantric sexual practices. Meanwhile, the external curvature and carvings of the temples depict humans, human bodies, and the changes that occur in human bodies, as well as facts of life. Some 10% of the carvings contain sexual themes; those reportedly do not show deities, they show sexual activities between people. The rest depict the everyday life of the common Indian of the time when the carvings were made, and of various activities of other beings. For example, those depictions show women putting on makeup, musicians, potters, farmers, and other folks. Those mundane scenes are all at some distance from the temple deities. A common misconception is that, since the old structures with carvings in Khajuraho are temples, the carvings depict sex between deities.
you think the sea is blue till you are upto 6th-7th standard.then you come to know that the sky is not actually blue,but is due to the reflection.but to understand that,you have to open your eyes and atleast draw a handfull of water to see if it is blue!
So Selective hailing of our past culture is fine. Fully immersing ourselves in it is wrong. Let me tell you this, the likes of BJP and others (i do not even consider the BJP as a purely communal party) talk about the importance of us holding onto our culture and identity. And you may agree or disagree with them but what one cannot do is to allow these people to dictate to you whats your culture and whats not. For example you cannot choose a 1000 year old religious practice and then sneer at nude sculptures from a similar period as obscene, its like chanting an old mantra the replication of it in an albiet modern theme. If you have notice the art of India through ages its constantly evolving, there are periods of ascendence and decline of beauty, and beauty in art is strictly to the eyes of the beholder, now I am an old fashioned guy who do not find any beauty in the paintings of Mr Hussein or his modern peers, but there are people who do and increasingly there are more who do than people who do not. We just have to respect that, naked art has always been part and parcel of our culture. You cannot equate it to pornography or public sex. If you feel so offended why not write about the increasing number of naked MMS clips from almost all part of India. While its against the law the loose sex practices which are part and parcel of the modern society are finding a general acceptance throughout the country especially in the urban mainstream (refer to the Maharashtra law on living in relationships - law is flawed but its a recognition of such a culture). And throughout our history till the last 5-6 centuries, we didn't have such double-standardish morals.This is the country which produced the Kamasutra, the pre-eminent text in love making, and lest no one tell you it was for use between husband and wife, Its not a sex book it has chapters from initial attraction to orgies. Why I say this is we are fighting the wrong things in this country at the moment. Our ancestors did wear clothes, they wore clothes which suited the climate, its after years of Muslim and British occupation that our dressing styles have changed. In a hot country the minimalistic clothing style was ideal. Here we have schools run by Hindu organizations asking the kids to wear the tie in 40 degrees?. If you get sexual gratification seeing the paintings of M.F Hussein then you must be really sick. Mr. Hussien's art is very abstract and like a modern fiction each and every one can interpret what he means by it differently according to their taste and capacity, now lets go further back than Raja Ravi Varma who's women are more erogenous without taking their clothes off, there's the classical painters like Davinci who have also had nude paintings, but paintings of these era represented the human form and figure closely, but they are regarded world wide as genuine art. Poor old Hussein with his modern paintings which look like outlines is punished am sure because he is a Muslim.
I have always maintained (see previous posts) that the sexual sculptures at Khajurao are not of gods and goddesses they only remind us of the broad mindedness of our ancestors if anything. But its not the same case in other places i talked to you about, nude sculptures of Hindu deities are spread throughout India and you must really visit the places to see. Now the actual sexual acts other than embraces are rarely seen in sculptures and paintings of ancient India, we get a vivid part by part detail of the sexual acts between gods and their spouses' in different Puranas.
External carvings of all temples do not depict humans. You either have not visited temples i states, or is saying that for the sake of arguement.
Finally about the silly sky comment. The sky is blue as far as we are concerned, no scientist has said that the sky is any other colour. They only explained why it is blue, its because of Rayleigh scattering.
And finally you targets non poisonous exotic snakes like Mr. Hussein while you condone ugly venomous snakes going on rampage through Gujarat, Orissa, Maharashtra etc. preaching Fascism and non Tolerance albeit under the flags of Hinduism. Islam and India. I think if still alive Gandhiji would have been more upset about the atrocities committed against the minorities in Gujarat and Orissa rather than about Mr. Hussein's paintings. Then again who among these have studied Gandhi ?
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=Ne020208the_master.asp
dear jumbo, interaction is great, but with this guys who has limited vision and poison in core is futile! Their intentions are some thing else-against good sense of ‘living’! See I was posting in their pages and now stopped this! Their discussions (trash) must be left in the deserved place-dustbin!
Dear Poocha,
The sad thing about human nature is emotion often over rides logic and fairness. I do not think most of these folks are bad people in a person2person level, they are just too narrow and brain washed and that's my sadness, too narrow minded to think in the other persons shoes too narrow minded to understand the notion of 'choice'. I am sure more people have seen the supposedly blasphemous images through the radical Hindu campaigning against it rather than through art publications.
I know i cannot change these folks but if I can at least make one do some research before they blast off i will be much happy. Like Gandhiji said 'be the change you want to see in this world'
Way to go Rahul...I am writing from the UK and here also you have great support. I think the younger generation will realise what is right and what is wrong. Calling M F Hussain a great artist has become fashionable and ther are many who think that jumping on to the bandwagon of his supporters will make them intellectual!. I have only one attitude towards them...that of contempt. I understand art but when one uses artistic licence profusely to degrade a particularly, we may get doubts as to why that is done.
We are a group of students who admire your work not only in this issue, but in others too where you have voiced the concerns of the hindu community. I am pretty sure that your views will be echoed in the majority of the young minds in India. Let me rephrase Marx's statement and add that communism has become the opium for some people. I hope that the students of the universities in Kerala comes out the intoxication of such an obsolete ideology and see the truth without their red spectacles.
Calling me a communist would be like calling night day. I am INC through and through have cast my votes to the congress always.
Lakshmy you are a student why do you not refer to texts on Iconography. I am not going to say anymore you can refer to ones by Indian and Foreign Scholars and see the pictures/drawings of the deity's in our sanctums garbhagrihas).
M.F Hussein is a great artist with international recognition and the government of Kerala was right in honouring him.
So here is the good news for all who are supporting every kind of nudism as art. And specially for "Jumbo".
I am going to Cannes by next month for portrait art, sketching and painting. There will also be nude portrait/painting sessions. How every I never painted before any live nude lady but considering its a good chance.
I ask to Jumbo ( or any other too in this thread), can you allow to paint his wife/sister/mother ? I will be glad to take her on board. Funds are a bit problem, I will try to get from my organization or sponsors, but even if not get then I can bear for one lady at least.
I am not sure those paintings will be famous as others, but I will try my best.
Jumbo, your logics definitely allow to do this, as your mother,wife or sister (if exists) as there nudity exists in this world, and many times they nude somewhere for some reason .. bedroom, bathroom etc. ( according to your existence theory)
I am just trying to find out platform for your philosophy, which can start from your broad minded thoughts and respect to a great art.
Who knows I may get a big fame by this nude paintings. :)
(Visa and paper work is required, and its not in my hand, but I will try my best)
Jumbo...
I was not debating whether you are a communist or a congressman and whether that would create a bias in your views. I will try to read what you suggest and then try to find the connection. What I was trying to suggest here is that people, especially the young have begun to feel that Hinduism in this country has become some kind of a football which everyone kicks about according to their will. Why cant I defend my religion or an attack against it without being called a fundamentalist. If M F Hussain was expressing what you call 'freedom of expression', why are most of his paintings expressing freely about hindu Gods and Goddesses. Why didnt he attempt to portray some one from his own religion who is in vogue now a days? The answer is because he knows that there would be people like you who would defend him whatever he does. This happens only in India!
My opinion is not a rock which cannot be moved and I think human beings are endowed with a brain to think and sift the right from the wrong or choose the apt path. My view is also shaped by the fact that, to the western world, Hinduism and India becomes a mockery because of such paintings and portrayals. Thanks to people like MF that some of them still call us Pagans, idol worshippers and what not!
it is very pathetic that people like Devid has no points to add to this debate / discussion. So you take on guys like Jumbo personally, who was able to prove his stand with so many examples and facts. Really pathetic... is that all you had to argue ? he was trying to defend his points through a lot of analysis and studies. either you dont know anything related to that or you dont have any valid point left. so take him personally and make him silent... is that what you want...? to all, a debate is going on here on a very important issue. either you put your points and facts or logic in favour of it or against it. Or you can even simply scribble the "I support you ..." lines as usual. But personal attacks are not fair. Its spoiling the spirit of a good discussion...
Hi Vinod,
First of all, I am participating in this thread since long time, with many arguments and replies. And here I just replied one of "Jumbo"'s post only.
And why this is personal ? Are "Bharatmata" or "Hindu goddess" only made to play around ? Your's one is respectable but other's not?
He is trying to prove nudity to "mother" of millions, why his own can't ? Its just a subset of whole nudity he is trying to prove.
I just have "pure art" in my mind, also will be nothing else when I paint his mother or any other. I have no bad thought at all.
Vinod, It clearly shows that you respect your's one, and can't accept "nude art" for them. But you dont have that respect or feelings for Bharatmata or any other hindu goddess(mata).
Its your duel thinking. Make your thought broad and global, which can be applicable to you also..!
I again want to say again, I am just a artist, painter without any fame. To get famous, I just need to paint a controversial subject. Mr. MF Hussein used this trick to get "world-famous" tag, nothing else. There are hundreds artists .. better then him, without name.
Start visiting art galleries, you will find yourself.
Dear Devid,
I very much doubt that M.r Hussein took abroad Sita or Ram to do his works. His works are not portraits, as in you cannot look at the iconographic texts and say that he has followed every feature, its modern art. So if you want to draw my wife, mother or sister you are with in your rights to do so. But do it like M.F Hussein has done, ie. use ur imagination, think how they would be look like and draw it. And learned people would say that is your reflection of women, not as some Jumbo's mother or sister.
Second of all you are a bloody liar who is using an 'Abrahamish' fake name to post (may be to imply that you are a christian, muslim or a jew). Then your bollocks about you going to Cannes for some art session. I am not arguing whether or not you can afford to go there. But i doubt an artist of even limited ability will argue a point without facts like you do. And dear 'Devid' in Cannes while you are at it try to get a portrait of yours painted from one of the Artists on the streets there. It will be very good and better than what you can manage all your life.
One more thing, you may have scared of so many people with your cheap personal attack tactics, but they don't work with me as I am immune to stupidity.
Like M.r Vinod said why not instead try to back up your arguments with facts. You must know that if it was any kind of a moderated discussion forum you would be banned with your first post. Do not believe me or scholars who have researched on Hindu Iconography, Please if you know Sanskrit, look at the original texts of the following.
Harivamshapurana.
Agni Purana.
Brahmapurana.
As I have said the concept of Bharat Mata is a relatively new one we can only refer to her as Bhumi Devi of the scriptures. If you look at the Varaha sculptures you can see that Bhumi Devi is portrayed naked except for a small sash and jewelery.
In these above mentioned texts you will find references of how each and every deity must be represented in the sanctum. If you go and visit several temples, instead of arguing here, you can see that many devi sculptures that are worshiped inside the sanctum are nude. It does not matter for the people who worship because they do not care they are worshiping their goddess. Like wise for people who enjoy good art it does not matter if the subjects are nude or not.
Dear Lakshmy,
I believe that you have not read my earlier posts. I am for freedom of expression in art regardless of the religion or god portrayed. In my state the Da Vinci code was screened, Kerala has India's largest Christian population and it was governed by the United Democratic Front (with strong christian allies) at the time but despite the protest it was screened.
I was also very upset about India government banning the publication of the infamous cartoons of the prophet printed in some Danish newspapers. You see for us to be a real democracy we need to have more freedom of expression that is not curtailed when a religious group here or there takes it to the streets. In America ( not a big fan of American foreign policy ) you can openly criticize a religion, or foreign policy, like the war on Iraq. But people who have a difference of opinion over our policies in Assam and Kashmir are charged with treason or defamed by the media here.
I believe in what Voltaire once said. ' I disagree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it'.
If at all you feel Hinduism is becoming a mockery elsewhere you should thank the extremists here for it. Hinduism had a lot of world wide followers during the 60s and 70s with many missions prospering world wide. Now a days what do they see here ? They see the worlds most tolerant religion turning into something worse than radical Islam. The Ambassadors of extreme hinduism like Mr. Modi are denied western Visas despite being the Chief Minister of a State here.
Lakshmy, you can see who is defaming and making Hindus look bad in front of the rest of the world. Hinduism at is very core does not condone idol worship, as followed by learned scholars like Dayananda and Tagore, but are we telling these outsiders the merits of our ancient religion which is interlinked with our culture, we are not and even if we are those sounds are muted by the violent radical form of Hinduism.
Dear Jumbo,
Your language in this reply clearly says that you are angry and it is not acceptable to you. It hurts. And it is quite expected from a common human being. I just tried to establish a simple fact, peoples who takes goddesses as mother; it also hurt lot to them. The angriness you have, similar to that have others...millions. This is not a legal battle, just matter of respect to each others, and avoid things which hurt to any one other.
Dear Devid,
I very much doubt that M.r Hussein took abroad Sita or Ram to do his works. His works are not portraits, as in you cannot look at the iconographic texts and say that he has followed every feature, its modern art. So if you want to draw my wife, mother or sister you are with in your rights to do so. But do it like M.F Hussein has done, ie. use ur imagination, think how they would be look like and draw it.
Definitely I am not Hussein, and don’t want to be at all. And about abroad, I will not go there if you can allow in your home itself?? Why you trying to say "Do same as Hussein Does”? What I said is not belong to "Freedom of Expression" (FoE)? Only what Hussein do is FoE? Portrait are not belongs to Foe. Only modern art? Never say to any body "do it like M.F Hussein has done”... he is not god or idol. It shows your narrow mindness that you are just blind follower or supporter of hussain.
Regarding hussain's imagination ... his imagination is only sex!! He can paint any other character having sex, or even he can establish a new character as most artist do, but he copied/stole Hindu mythology characters and painted them with his horny SEX imagination.
What ever you can’t describe well... you says it modern art. Ok if it is modern art they keep it modern, not mix with ancient characters.
And learned people would say that is your reflection of women, not as some Jumbo's mother or sister.
Yes, agree, exactly same I want to say about hussain, He should paint his own reflection of women, not Jumbo's mother, not mine, not any one others. Extremely simple thing I am trying to convey you, which you are not getting and turning it to a legal battle.
Second of all you are a bloody liar who is using an 'Abrahamish' fake name to post (may be to imply that you are a christian, muslim or a jew). Then your bollocks about you going to Cannes for some art session. I am not arguing whether or not you can afford to go there. But i doubt an artist of even limited ability will argue a point without facts like you do.
I don’t want to make word to word fight here... but yahh... I am not rich like hussian, which is living in UAE, in a luxury house, with luxury Ferrari and other cars.
And dear 'Devid' in Cannes while you are at it try to get a portrait of yours painted from one of the Artists on the streets there. It will be very good and better than what you can manage all your life.
It shows your just high angriness, I know well what I need to do, you don’t need to worry.
One more thing, you may have scared of so many people with your cheap personal attack tactics, but they don't work with me as I am immune to stupidity.
"Cheap Personal attack”.... I think what you wrote in above line, may be called "personal". Would you like to say it "cheap personal attach"... okay... still fine... and that’s I want to say for hussain, he is just doing "cheap public attack". or can say "cheap community attack" ...Yes ... exactly.
Good to know about you "immune to stupidity". This is common phenomena or human nature, if they don’t have any answer, they just call stupid to others.
Like M.r Vinod said why not instead try to back up your arguments with facts. You must know that if it was any kind of a moderated discussion forum you would be banned with your first post.
So here you are opposing the FoE? If you are moderator, then you will ban my posts? This totally against what you are trying to prove since so many posts. You should read carefully my first and other posts, they are completely logical and based on facts only. Now you don’t like my posts, you are saying it should be banned; even I didn't hurt anybody's sentiments or posted any painting like hussain.
Still agree... exactly same thing I am saying, about hussain's expressions, they need moderation; he is hurting to so many Indians, not only to me. I am not against to mar hussain personally, I just want to moderate his posts.
Do not believe me or scholars who have researched on Hindu Iconography, Please if you know Sanskrit, look at the original texts of the following.
Harivamshapurana.
Agni Purana.
Brahmapurana.
I don’t know Sanskrit, well but it doesn’t matter. Also I believe on you and your study, no conflicts. But something you find somewhere, you can’t make to generic that? you can’t apply anywhere? that doesn’t means it provide license to paint badly any Hindu character... or any other character.
There are hundreds nudist colonies in French life, but they live nude in there colonies only. you can’t apply this as generic to any French and ask to be nude anywhere to any French, even that they count it in FoE.
You don’t need to go so far, in our current society, you can find nudism. Dig amber Jain saints, live nude in our country itself. you can find them anywhere close to your place. But it doesn’t mean that every Jain should do that.
Nudity exists, but in context, relevant to era, life, and age of society. Also you need to understand difference between nudity and sex.
As I have said the concept of Bharat Mata is a relatively new one we can only refer to her as Bhumi Devi of the scriptures. If you look at the Varaha sculptures you can see that Bhumi Devi is portrayed naked except for a small sash and jewelery.
First of all, Bharat mata is not belongs to any particular religion, Its counts as mother of all Indians despite of fact they are Muslims or christens. In enlist; they call "mother land". Why you try to drag every thing with Hindu religion? Stop doing this; do not relate it to a single Hindu goddess. Also, As I said above, if you fond "Bhumi Mata" portrayed naked, it doesn’t means you got license to paint any goddess naked. That’s how you are trying to prove hussain's ram-sita painting. You can’t find any single historic evidence, which shows ram and sita having sex and some one watching it from behind. If you study so much... read the character of Hanuman in Hindu mythology books.
In these above mentioned texts you will find references of how each and every deity must be represented in the sanctum. If you go and visit several temples, instead of arguing here, you can see that many devi sculptures that are worshiped inside the sanctum are nude. It does not matter for the people who worship because they do not care they are worshiping their goddess. Like wise for people who enjoy good art it does not matter if the subjects are nude or not.
You should first learn difference between nudity and sex. I visited already many temples, but by this argument, you can't get license to paint any... yes any Hindu characters, nude and having sex. You can’t justify! You are just trying to establish a legal battle. A criminal can be won by hundreds arguments by his lower but that can’t restore the loss.
Dear Devid,
First of all I am not angry or frustrated. I just wanted to take you on and I told you that you can draw the picture of anyone you want to. The name Devid and the whole thing about Cannes is fake and you either used it to rile me or you are a blatant liar.
No its not a generic thing Devid, the texts i gave you the names of (there are several others as well) texts which are descriptive of how an image of a diety must be created, what must there peculiarities be and the features for eg. Sankha Chakra Gada Padma for Vishnu.
And many of these ancient naked and half naked sculptures were made with reference to these books. But do an ardent devotee look at these and say that the diety is nude and it should be banned, no because for him whats important is the image of the diety in his mind. Like wise for an art entusiast/archaeologist whats important is not the lack of clothes but the features and beauty of the work/sculpture. You can make ugly naked art and beautiful clothed ones and vice versa.
Like you yourself have said, do not generalize, the works of Mr. Hussein were never main stream till the radical Hindu organizations made a big deal out if it. So basically what they have done is, take a piece for art aimed at art lovers, so far with limited publicity (he drew it years ago) and use it as a tool for your propaganda and spread it in a way which Mr Hussien would have never been able to do.
If at all any feelings have been hurt its because of your crusade against the artist and rabid publication of the work.
Let me conclude by saying this, that you lot are like cheap tabloids who sensationalize issues like sexual pursuits of famous men and women by adding their own bit to it with some masala pictures only with an aim of increasing their subscription.
For Eg: Famous Bollywood Actress held Nude photo shoot.....(a paragraph for condemning the actress).....then at the end four pages in half gloss with vitals blurred out saying 'the controversial nude pictures'.
You all are nothing but a bunch of Pseudo Moralists. !
Yes there is a difference between nude art and having sex. Have you read ANY puranas, describing in detail how gods and goddesses made love. Some of it are full of excesses that would make even Marquis De Sade shy. If you want to take me on in this arguement given time i will give u exact texts, chapters and verses which show these.
These books are written by men, learned men of the age. And one of the learned men of our age depicted some as art. Why the uproar ? Don't like it, don't see it.
Hello Jumbo,
Looks like you are making this discussion totally personal, and repeated many times what I am. I am cheap, stupid, liar, pseudo moralist, Narrow Minded, Radical Nationalism,.. Blah blah blah...! Okay let assume I am, will that affect the subject? And If I am not... will that affect? And if you are very intelligent, intellectuality, not moralists or real moralist ... will that affect this matter?
Many times in previous posts you also did the same. Well... but it’s not your fault, its human nature, when they don’t have correct answers they do like this. I also can say comment on you but I will not feel proud on that.
About mythology books, purans, I never opposed to you and never said, such contents are not there. I still have "Kalidas's Literature" book in myself, and I taken a look on it few years ago. His writing also contains such material.
And I also have given you more examples ...!!
And you neither answered my real questions nor considered my answers. Read my post again ... e.g. "I believe on you and your study, no conflicts. But something you find somewhere, you can’t make to generic that? You can’t apply anywhere? That doesn’t means it provide license to paint badly any Hindu character... or any other character."
Nudity exists, but you can’t apply it anywhere
Instead of considering a debate, you are trying to write new words texts, again and again. You are stick to only one point about existence of nudity in ancient books and culture and giving same references again and again. Please come out from that era and look forward to current society also. What is relevant and not relevant to current culture and society.
Don’t ask to any French to be nude anywhere by just giving references that they lives nude in colonies. Might be your logical ability is good to prove it, but can’t be accepted by any common French.
In the beginning of this tread, a crystal clear question written already "Will you tolerate if Mr MF Hussain or any other person applies this 'freedom of expression' to our mother, sister, wife or daughter? . did you answer that ?
I am trying to establish here, if something hurt to some one ..( Here its so many, large numbers), then you should stop that without an argument of "Freedom of Expression".
But here all I can say .. you are trying to co-relate an English porn literature, available on every other street, with Kamasutra. And it can't !!!
Might be you will not agree and say .. Whatever written here is exists already .. since many years... read kamasutra .. you will find it .. blah blah .. ! Might be you can fight this battle on legal ground, giving examples of Kamasutra and so many other old books. But I can’t accept, many others so... whatever you can say .. Moralists or Pseudo Moralists .. cheap .. idiot.
Again just for an example, You can use abusive words to your neighbor, and justify that you have "freedom of expression" and abusive words exists, in day-to-day life so many peoples are using it without any harm ? You can say to your neighbor, that you are taking these words wrong, your thinking is wrong .. see those two friends (you can find many near to you), they are using abusive words for each other without any problem ? .... Might be you can .. because you are trying to justify Husain’s creation in same way ... "you are looking nudity and sex .. there are great art ... you are cheap.. ...your thinking is bad blah blah blah ...".
People like you used to say, think like them, look with eyes of great artists, a mind of artist......I couldn’t understand till now, are artists made spartanly .. they are not like common human beings... they don’t eat food, or they only takes vitamins ? they don’t have sex hormones ? they don’t have emotions ? .....
Jumbo, there is a basic difference in other thinking... as you mentioned in earlier post "The freedom and rights of a single person is more important than the collective will of a people.", and I think benefit of society and collective will is more important then one person. And that is called democracy .. where we live. This issue is related to public, that’s why we are discussing here, if it was limited to single one, then he can discuss with his friends or in his home itself.
"Just arrived" said one of his post : I only see two points - one is whether the need of such painting was matter of life and death for Mr Husain even if it hurt other peoples sentiments - if he honestly says YES than he should be allowed to carry on painting many more. Though I am convinced that painting nudes & hurting people’s sentiments was not matter of life and death for Mr. Husain or anyone else as a matter of fact. And therefore not justifiable. There was no need - he is a great artist and he would have used the paint & canvass for much better art work. He messed it up. There was no need. No need whatso ever except to gain cheap popularity.
Jumbo, you never precisely answer the issues, you just think you are highly intellectual, and keeps bunch of papers for references from old mythology books and creations, and repetitively presenting them. So many in this tread answered for your references, me too, but you never answering the debate. instead of that, you are just saying others cheap, stupid, liar, pseudo moralist, Narrow Minded, Radical Nationalism, .. blah blah blah ...! I think this is cheapest way not accepting the debate.
Well some times I feel realy ediot,... Yesterday one of my friend came and said-- "He (hussain) is living a glamours life with full of money, big house, luxury cars, and left behind you in India to fight with each others.... and he(Husain) even don’t have any concern with you and other guys."
Yes.. exactly .. he already taken all benefits from such fights, and made lot of money. We are still debating ...!!! Well .. its human nature .. and I m not so different .. doing this again and again.. And Husain is winning again and again.
Many other already told in this thread ..."We fight, Husain Wins"
The Basic building block of democracy is individual freedom. If you are looking at collective interests you are better off with communism or a totalitarian state. The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation, this is the basic principle we should use. Would you like one of your family being executed without trial because the rest of your village/town wants it ?
My answer is yes Mr. Hussein can paint and publish the portrait of any one in this world with their consent, even if its my wife, mother or sister. Its up to him and the subject of his art to decide, since its a portrayal of a living person.
Oh no Mr Hussein wins when we fight ? How ? Actually the old man is doing rather well partially because of the furor regarding his works. Now his paintings are sold at 10 times the price they fetched before. And he is living a luxurious life in Dubai :). So yes it may nag in the back of his mind that people here have misunderstood his work, but do you really think he's losing any sleep over this driving his exotic cars and having a good time ?
You are missing my points totally, Its the likes of you who have made his works mainstream by all the protests and extremism. Till then it was limited aimed at only a small section of the society.
The debate or the fight is not just for Mr. Hussein. Its for others as well like Salman Rushdi, Taslima Nasreen and many others who have not broken a single law in our country but have to live like outlaws. You have to learn to leave with people of different views and tastes, as in if some material is offensive you can choose not to watch it, but the total banning and the banishment of people who do these works results in depriving people who love their works the opportunity to see it.
Do not force your view on others, that's all.
RUN THAT BASTED'S GAME !!
I saw those paintings, who the hell is this MF MUSSAIN, he has no right to touch the religious, historic, cultural beliefs.
KILL HIM. LET COURT SENTENCE HIM DEATH.
NAMASTE JUMBO and others,
I was in Malaysia for 2 weeks. Just came back. sad that couldnt join ur debate. But both sides argued well.
BUT SADLY JUMBO ....Just trying to be 'intellectualish'. It happens to our youngsters who are brain washed by the leftist ideology.
LET ME START REFUTING
JUMBO CLAIMS "My answer is yes Mr. Hussein can paint and publish the portrait of any one in this world with their consent, even if its my wife, mother or sister"
I would like to meet Jumbos father and ask if he has the same opinion about his wife. THEN WHY THE HELL SHOULD SOME ONE ASK HIS FAMILIES PERMISSION. Why should you be such moralistic? Such fascist? such cultural purists? WHY SHOULD ONE TAKE PERMISSION. Is paiting without permission a part of artistic freedom.
COME ON JUMBO dont be so fascist. DOnt be cultural purtian. dont me moralist. AND WHY DONT YOU ALLOW PERSONAL ATTACKS. THATs also a part of the writer's freedom. THATs one persons freedom to verbally abuse you. DONT REACT. TAKE IT AS JUST FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
See if some one insults my mother or my motherland, I will first request him to stop, then warn him to stop, then if he is not listening, I will use my freedom of protest...Some time in such a way that through my freedom of protest, he will not be able to use his freedom any more.
JUMBO dear brother. What you say is nothing more than pseudo intellectualism.
I have learned Sanskrit and studied texts.What you dont understand is
1) Sex is god's gift, but is having sex with neighbour's wife, god's gift?
2) A thing of beauty is a joy for ever, does that mean taking "good" camera shots & photos of a fellow college girl is good and what Keats meant?
3) We are all masters of our body and sexuality, but does that mean couple swapping, orgies, drugs are all good.?
(It is the left-liberals like you in Europe and America who is supporting all these immoralities in the name of FREEDOM)
Everything in the world is right, only in it's ETHICAL FRAME WORK. Everything in the world is good,
only in it's socially responsible and ethically right framework.
4) Remember NUDITY was not the primary problem I pointed out. IT WAS VULGARITY. ( pictures like Sita Devi and Hanuman)
5) In a talk show in Cnn-Ibn and discussion in Indiavision, i told them "An Indian Muslim is more important than a Bangladeshi Hindu for me..So I dont want Taslima who is a cheap publicity seeker, who cleverly insults Islam and Prophet to get mileage in west to live in my nation with my tax".
The reality is In a multi-cultural, mutli-ethnic, multi-religious country like India, Mutual respect and sensitivity is needed
Be honest, Dear friend. When the world is becoming a global village and 650 crore people are living with each other, Dont you think people should be Sensitive to each other's sensibilities?
Dont give an utopian answer, be honest, be realistic.
Vandee Mataram
Hello Jumbo,
First of all, you are not accepting any of my reply, and not answering any of my question. You are just barking and barking and barking.....just barking and coming up with new heavy text. Similar as a lawyer of criminal fight in court.
I tried to answer you always line by line and almost satisfied all your debate anxiety.
And here let me answer again.
The Basic building block of democracy is individual freedom. If you are looking at collective interests you are better off with communism or a totalitarian state. The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation, this is the basic principle we should use. Would you like one of your family being executed without trial because the rest of your village/town wants it ?
Is it happens in communist country ? or in socialist country ? or any other kind of governed country ? Not at all. You tried to put up an extremely wrong example here !
First let me correct it ... "If they have done wrong to society they belong, then they must be punished" and this is the answer, where society involved, which means .. collective will !"
Every country established a law system and they follow. These laws made for society and collective efforts only. Similar to that .. on lower level, every society has also some defined and undefined rules, which should be followed by society, and thats all this thread and debate is say.
"We live in a society ... we must respect that society's dignity, rules and discipline." - thats one motto of this entire blog and debate.
Second, your understanding of democracy or communism is very very poor. This can be a big enough subject for debate, and I can discuss you hours and days and months but separately .. somewhere else .. not in this thread. But still I want to tell you the basic concepts.
All kind of government systems are made for building and managing "civilization". Function of a government is managing society, distribution of resources and establishing demand-supply chains. Now whatever kind of government it is .. democracy .. socialist.. or communist... or even king-based, these all are made for entire community and work toward civilization. However it is just basic function, governing systems can be elaborate more.
And keep in mind, democracy is best implementation of "Collective will" ! Government built by "collective votes" only.
And now the worst thing you said in this thread "The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation, this is the basic principle we should use." ... Mr Jumbo .. you should keep in mind .. there are so many individual working behind your peace full life and getting deaths just for the country ... ! If they think only for them self .. then forget about your life.. your mother, sister, or wife .. I cant write here what can be happened with them. Your basic principle is so ridiculous, and to maintain that .. you should go to some jungle or any alien place .. !!
My answer is yes Mr. Hussein can paint and publish the portrait of any one in this world with their consent, even if its my wife, mother or sister. Its up to him and the subject of his art to decide, since its a portrayal of a living person.
Whats special in Mr Hussein ? He can do it but not I am ? Even I am following the same way you support and what Mr Hussein did ?. I asked the same thing before .. I just need identity to paint ! Just disclose identity of your mother, wife or sister, I am ready to paint ? so many artist can join together for this event, painters, photographers, art movie makers, .... so many !!
Oh no Mr Hussein wins when we fight ? How ? Actually the old man is doing rather well partially because of the furor regarding his works. Now his paintings are sold at 10 times the price they fetched before. And he is living a luxurious life in Dubai :). So yes it may nag in the back of his mind that people here have misunderstood his work, but do you really think he's losing any sleep over this driving his exotic cars and having a good time ?
Mr Husein already won so many times. thats not a question now. To answer how, I have to quote so many instances and links. But let me give you a simple example.
Search on Google for 'Mr M F Hussein', and start counting search results one by one....do until you think sample rate is enough. Keep results in one hand, which is about his nude and Hindu-goddess art .. and in other hand, keep his rest of all art. Just compare those results, After that don't need to say any thing. Thats how he is lives in media, gaining popularity, discussing people about him, adding his name on everywhere as "key word".
Now can you answer simple question .. honestly ..without playing with words....... "Have you ever discussed about any other artist, or about his art before, ... as much as you discussed or debated about Hussein here ?"
You are missing my points totally, Its the likes of you who have made his works mainstream by all the protests and extremism. Till then it was limited aimed at only a small section of the society.
I m not sure what what do you mean by limited society here .... ! but if it related to ALL in society the how you can think for few only ?
Just an good example for you.... last year, in Europe, a store launched bikini and lingerie sets, where Hindu god and goddess was printed,
Man's underwear was printed face of Ganesh ( what it mean you can understand it ?), a foot-wear sleeper, with Laxmi goddess. These all products was actually for beach hunters and they are mostly European... ! So can you justify this by saying that, it was limited aimed only at small section of the society ?
Now see what MF hussain did !
1) Before painting his "Ramanyana series", he involved in media, and said .. " This is want I am going to do ...."
2)While doing his job, he said to media .. This is I am doing now a days.. ..
3) After completion .. he shown and said to media .. This is what I have done .....
The debate or the fight is not just for Mr. Hussein. Its for others as well like Salman Rushdi, Taslima Nasreen and many others who have not broken a single law in our country but have to live like outlaws.
For people like you, only matters individual .. then why you are trying to quote here country's law. Okey ..Fine... but everything related to society is not mentioned in law .. and it cant. does our law has what kind of relation should be in a family ? with whom you can have sex and with you cant ? It covers in our civilization and civilization doesn't runs by country's law. It runs by the collective thoughts and It is a continuous process of building a better society.
You have to learn to leave with people of different views and tastes,
I believe, only our nation is the example to the world, where all people lives with different culture, different languages, different customs and so many other difference. Few of them are breaking this spirit like hussain.
Also .. what you said is correct and It should be applicable to mr hussein also, he should "learn to live with people of different views and tastes." ... well .. he left the country .. he don't want to live even here.. what more I can say... ! and don't say he left the country because of blah blah blah people, but he left the country because of so many court cases, and he do not have faith in court.
People like us, protesting him under the law and Indian culture. No body has attacked him or hurted, but he fears that court can give him punishment. And don't believe me .. just read his statements to media which reflects why he is living out of the country.
Recently when supreme court given verdict in favor of mr hussain in a case, he said " Court has given justice and now I am eager to come to India ....!" This statement itself shows he waiting for court's positive verdict. If court had given verdict against him, will he come back ot India for living in Jail ? ... Haarrr ... Not at all .. because motive behind living in other country is only to escape from any kind of such situation which may build in any other case.
as in if some material is offensive you can choose not to watch it, but the total banning and the banishment of people who do these works results in depriving people who love their works the opportunity to see it.
I answered many times this in my previous posts. And you are new to this thread .. read many old posts, it is answered many times even.
Do not force your view on others, that's all.
True .. ! Yes ..you are right.. and here "view" is created by mr hussain and he and people like you trying to force on others. We didn't generated this "view" .. it was not even there ...! We are just protesting to mr hussain's "view".
If you don't want to listen anybody in thread and don't accept any answer of your debate, at least this your's sentence should apply on yourself...... "Do not force your view on others, that's all.
My First Post is addressed to Mr. Rahul,
I never claimed to be of any intellect so your first statement that I am a psuedo intellect do not hold water. But this is a free country if that is your opinion about me then you have every right to say it.
1) Sex is god's gift, but is having sex with neighbour's wife, god's gift?
Now here depending on ones religious belief one may agree or disagree with you. And i respect your high morality and my view on it similar to yours. We both think that Sex is Gods gift and having sex with one's neighbour is unacceptable. Where we differ is that I do not force my view on others. As in if one makes love with one's neighbour's wife, her being a consenting adult, there is nothing in Indian law that is against it, as long as money is not involved (then you can put it under immoral traffic and prostitution. So in that case i wont take to the street and enforce my belief on the rest of the country, because i believe they have the right to believe what they want to.
2) A thing of beauty is a joy for ever, does that mean taking "good" camera shots & photos of a fellow college girl is good and what Keats meant?
Actually if the girl is consenting there is nothing wrong with it. And there are laws which define it clearly, everyone has their own personal space like one's home and a private work place, but in public its like 10 metres(or yards not sure) around you that is considered your personal space from which you cannot take pictures. But in India we see misuse of the photographs as in for taking a fake identity and super imposing the head of the girl with naked models etc. Now that is breach of trust and that is the reason why many institutions have taken a strict stance against taking photographs.
3) We are all masters of our body and sexuality, but does that mean couple swapping, orgies, drugs are all good.?
Actually I do not think they are good. But as it is sex between consenting adult of the OPPOSITE sex, there is no problem with these under Indian law, unless they video graph (which is legal for private videos) and publish, then it becomes pornography and not acceptable under our law.
4) Remember NUDITY was not the primary problem I pointed out. IT WAS VULGARITY. ( pictures like Sita Devi and Hanuman)
What is Vulgar to you may not be vulgar to others. You have the option to not view it, This is not like shown in doordarsan or on daily papers.
But a total banning of his works means that people who want to see it will not be able to see it.
5) In a talk show in Cnn-Ibn and discussion in Indiavision, i told them "An Indian Muslim is more important than a Bangladeshi Hindu for me..So I dont want Taslima who is a cheap publicity seeker, who cleverly insults Islam and Prophet to get mileage in west to live in my nation with my tax".
As I said this is not China you have every right to express your opinion. Now even if i do not agree with you I will fight for your right to express it. Miss Nasreen would not have come to India if her governement did not banish her. And not even Hindu organizations agree with you, the BJP have made statements supporting her extended stay. I hope that the next government in power will grant her visa extention
The reality is In a multi-cultural, mutli-ethnic, multi-religious country like India, Mutual respect and sensitivity is needed
There are a lot of people who are believers but not extreme towards any religion, so when ever a religious group be it Hindu, Christian or Muslim or even Jain, the ones who end up suffering are these people who are a sizable percentage of the population. And their rights are being trampled up on every time the governments give in to these communal forces.
Be honest, Dear friend. When the world is becoming a global village and 650 crore people are living with each other, Dont you think people should be Sensitive to each other's sensibilities?
I am a realist and that is why i see the menace of communalism and fascism looming over our country, and unless we cut the cancer out we are going down like Nazi Germany.
Yes in a global village we have to give importance to the freedom of other people as well. Tell me this can you do anything in this world than upsetting at least a small section of the people ? the answer is no..
Now Moving on to Devid,
Your questions are like this.
If a = 4 and b = 5 then what is the length of President Bush's nose ?
Sadly i do not have answers for such questions so i tried to explain to you what i meant by my comments.
Secondly when i ask you a question you are coming up with entirely different answers, and your lack of respect to fellow posters is astounding.
Let me try it the way you want me to!
'Is it happens in communist country ? or in socialist country ? or any other kind of governed country ? Not at all. You tried to put up an extremely wrong example here !'
You do not need to go to communist countries to see the following examples, go to many villages of our country still where vigilante justice and village rules over rule the rules of the nation. And these kind of things were common in the soviet Union during the time of Stalin and Krushchev and in other countries like China, lets hope the country falls like the soviets and we may get more info.
'First let me correct it ... "If they have done wrong to society they belong, then they must be punished" and this is the answer, where society involved, which means .. collective will !" '
Actually i did not imply that with my comment but since you put it up let me show you the hollowness of ur arguement. Our country has rule of law and a set of laws by which it is governed, now doing wrong to the society will be breaking these laws in our country and we have the Police and other mechanisms to deal with it. Vigilante justice and mob policing is not justice at all, and scenes in states like Bihar are better suited for Banana Republics of Africa not to a great nation like India.
And he goes on to say,
'Every country established a law system and they follow. These laws made for society and collective efforts only. Similar to that .. on lower level, every society has also some defined and undefined rules, which should be followed by society, and thats all this thread and debate is say.'
I agree with the first part of it that every country has a system of laws. There are only defined rules that one must follow, I as a citizen of India only have to follow my constitution and the rules of my nation/state/local elected bodies. I do not have to follow mob rules put forward by a large section of the society which varies from region to region. Undefined rules are part of informal social control, you can follow it or not as you wish.
'"We live in a society ... we must respect that society's dignity, rules and discipline." - thats one motto of this entire blog and debate.'
We Live in India and we must respect the rules of the land. The society's dignity, rules and discipline is rapidly evolving and hence it is a personal choice to follow it or not. As long as u do not break any rules you are doing nothing wrong.
'Second, your understanding of democracy or communism is very very poor. This can be a big enough subject for debate, and I can discuss you hours and days and months but separately .. somewhere else .. not in this thread. But still I want to tell you the basic concepts.'
Now if its a new political theory you put forward, right or wrong I will debate it with u for hours. But I don't need you to teach me anything about democracy or any isms. If you think that my concepts of democracy are wrong, then you are entitled to that opinion.
Moving on to your 'lecture' on democracy.
And keep in mind, democracy is best implementation of "Collective will" ! Government built by "collective votes" only.
It is, i never said it is not. But for it to function properly there are to be certain checks which every modern democracy has so that the majority cannot make decisions against human rights and freedoms. That is why my dear friend many decisions taken by the majority governments/ and parliaments are quashed by courts, which are the guardians of the constitution and human rights. Look at the functioning democracies of this world all have the basic concept of protection of human rights, where they fail to do that the country will break up and will be over run by factions. The African republics like Congo Rwanda Uganda etc are perfect examples.
'And now the worst thing you said in this thread "The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation, this is the basic principle we should use." ... Mr Jumbo .. you should keep in mind .. there are so many individual working behind your peace full life and getting deaths just for the country ... ! If they think only for them self .. then forget about your life.. your mother, sister, or wife .. I cant write here what can be happened with them. Your basic principle is so ridiculous, and to maintain that .. you should go to some jungle or any alien place .. !! '
First of all this is mumbo jumbo that makes little sense. But let me try to understand what you are trying to say here. If you are talking about the brave soldiers giving their lives for defending our country then i have nothing but utmost respect for them. Indian armed forces are a fully voluntary force ( means people are not conscripted, USA used conscription till end of Vietnam) So these people know what is required of them and when you sign an army contract be it as an NCO from a recruitment drive or as a CO from the NDA (nat def academy) you understand the risks involved in that job. And Army personnel have the same rights as you and me, an officer can for instance draw a picture of the prophet and publish it.
The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation. The basic thing here are the words right and will. Rights are essential it involves the right to live, travel, express etc. 'collective Will' is as in some thing the whole country want to happen.
So let me put it in a different context. for eg; imagine.
Majority of India wants to ban religious conversion by means of law.
A single individual or a few for that matter says its his basic right handed under the constitution to change his religion. Here in India because of our great constitution the RIGHT OF THE MAN will prevail over the WILL of the people.
'Whats special in Mr Hussein ? He can do it but not I am ? Even I am following the same way you support and what Mr Hussein did ?. I asked the same thing before .. I just need identity to paint ! Just disclose identity of your mother, wife or sister, I am ready to paint ? so many artist can join together for this event, painters, photographers, art movie makers, .... so many !!'
I cannot speak for others and give permission to you to draw the pictures of other people, even if they are my family, because i believe they have the right to choose for themselves, As i said if its consensual it is fine, always.
'Search on Google for 'Mr M F Hussein', and start counting search results one by one....do until you think sample rate is enough. Keep results in one hand, which is about his nude and Hindu-goddess art .. and in other hand, keep his rest of all art. Just compare those results, After that don't need to say any thing. Thats how he is lives in media, gaining popularity, discussing people about him, adding his name on everywhere as "key word"'
Quality of the results is what matters not quantity. For example there are more street dogs here in this world than pure-breads.
'Now can you answer simple question .. honestly ..without playing with words....... "Have you ever discussed about any other artist, or about his art before, ... as much as you discussed or debated about Hussein here ?"'
I have not and i don't give two monkeys about Mr. Hussein either. I am here defending individual freedom and Mr. Hussein is just a subject to matter.
'I m not sure what what do you mean by limited society here .... ! but if it related to ALL in society the how you can think for few only ?'
His paintings were first published in some magazine of the tatas and distributed to a limited circle. Many of his works never saw light till you made a big fuzz about it.
'Just an good example for you.... last year, in Europe, a store launched bikini and lingerie sets, where Hindu god and goddess was printed,
Man's underwear was printed face of Ganesh ( what it mean you can understand it ?), a foot-wear sleeper, with Laxmi goddess. These all products was actually for beach hunters and they are mostly European... ! So can you justify this by saying that, it was limited aimed only at small section of the society ?'
It was done there and not here. European countries are very liberal and they will allow even jesus tattooed on private parts. The symbols of India,Greece,Egypt etc are ancient and they are a cause of curiosity for many fashion designers and westerners. The problem is that in India there is a continuation of the religion and in the other two examples there is a stagnation. So to them it do not mean offending Hindu gods, they are selling their product. For eg do you think the Beatles were serious about Yoga and Hinduism when they were here ?
'Now see what MF hussain did !
1) Before painting his "Ramanyana series", he involved in media, and said .. " This is want I am going to do ...."
2)While doing his job, he said to media .. This is I am doing now a days.. ..
3) After completion .. he shown and said to media .. This is what I have done .....'
Please prove the above said statements with valid links.
'For people like you, only matters individual .. then why you are trying to quote here country's law. Okey ..Fine... but everything related to society is not mentioned in law .. and it cant. does our law has what kind of relation should be in a family ? with whom you can have sex and with you cant ? It covers in our civilization and civilization doesn't runs by country's law. It runs by the collective thoughts and It is a continuous process of building a better society.'
Actually your understanding of the law is very poor. Incest is illegal in India. Incest here means sexual union between Mother Son, Father Daughter and Sister Brother. In many western countries having sex with your uncle or aunt is Incest. But in India it is not under law. There are reasons for that. In Kerala among Hindus of the Nair, and Kshatriya castes it was customary to marry your first Cousins of matriarchal lineage. ie. to marry ones uncles daughter or aunt's son. It is still practiced in many parts. In Tamil Nadu it was customary for some castes for and Uncle to marry the daughter of his sister, ie niece. There are historical references in Matriarchal societies of India where when a ruler dies, his nephew instead of his son marries his widowed aunt to become the next ruler. Hope this helps. All these are verifiable.
'I believe, only our nation is the example to the world, where all people lives with different culture, different languages, different customs and so many other difference. Few of them are breaking this spirit like hussain.'
The spirit is broken by politicians who support and endorse violence against people like Hussien, Taslima and Rushdi. The government is to blame for this as well. I will admit freely that when minority sentiments are hurt our government is quicker to react than when the majority raises an issue. I am for a zero tolerance measure against all violent protests against these people. Peaceful protests must be allowed as it is their constitutional rights.
'Also .. what you said is correct and It should be applicable to mr hussein also, he should "learn to live with people of different views and tastes." ... well .. he left the country .. he don't want to live even here.. what more I can say... ! and don't say he left the country because of blah blah blah people, but he left the country because of so many court cases, and he do not have faith in court.'
No actually Mr. Hussein will be acquitted of most cases if he were present here. He left the country because the man is not willing to die for what he believes in, as in extremists would have tried to kill him and may be they would have.
'Recently when supreme court given verdict in favor of mr hussain in a case, he said " Court has given justice and now I am eager to come to India ....!" This statement itself shows he waiting for court's positive verdict. If court had given verdict against him, will he come back ot India for living in Jail ? ... Haarrr ... Not at all .. because motive behind living in other country is only to escape from any kind of such situation which may build in any other case. '
You are right he is staying there because he fears not the law but the people. In a country of a billion you will get a few hundred thousand for any cause.
'True .. ! Yes ..you are right.. and here "view" is created by mr hussain and he and people like you trying to force on others. We didn't generated this "view" .. it was not even there ...! We are just protesting to mr hussain's "view". '
I am not trying to force my view on others. I am just giving mine and you are giving yours. When its forcing it means violent protests. Like the attacks on Miss Tasleema and all that. I have not even resorted to personal attacks like you have. If a communist government comes to power and says that you cannot express your views like you are now, I will be the first to protest against it. Because for me your freedom of expression is as important as anyone else's.
'If you don't want to listen anybody in thread and don't accept any answer of your debate, at least this your's sentence should apply on yourself...... "Do not force your view on others, that's all.'
Again pure fallacy. I make time to read every word of every thread, even ones making to unpleasant reading and then only do i reply. I am just stating my view, I am not forcing it down your throat. And by 'you' in that sentence i did not mean you as a person but the likes of you, people with similar views who use pressure tactics to force it on others. Like banning of screening of movies etc.
That was kinda long, sorry wanted to make sure I answered to every question.
Now Moving on to Devid,
Welcome always ...
Your questions are like this.
If a = 4 and b = 5 then what is the length of President Bush's nose ?
Sadly I do not have answers for such questions so I tried to explain to you what I meant by my comments.
it means either you havent read my posts properly or you are really word-less . If asked such question...I certainly defined what a and b is. Can you point out any such illogical question ? If you found any thing, please quote here, I will try to explain it better.
Secondly when i ask you a question you are coming up with entirely different answers, and your lack of respect to fellow posters is astounding.
Well.. If any body in this thread is reading few last posts, can any one point out where I am giving different answers ? I am always to the point, precisely , try to be on the subject of thread.
Let me try it the way you want me to!
'Is it happens in communist country ? or in socialist country ? or any other kind of governed country ? Not at all. You tried to put up an extremely wrong example here !'
You do not need to go to communist countries to see the following examples, go to many villages of our country still where vigilante justice and village rules over rule the rules of the nation. And these kind of things were common in the soviet Union during the time of Stalin and Krushchev and in other countries like China, lets hope the country falls like the soviets and we may get more info.
Okey .. So do you mean it is right to have such things? Because they are exist somewhere in "many villages" ? Might be you say it is right thing, but I can't, and as I am not the LAW, not the government, PROTEST of such incidents is only my weapon.
I said many times in our debate, things are exists, it doesn’t means they are correct and should be applicable to all society. Similarly bad things done by hussain.
That is the process of evolution of civilization, many of us are working for better society and better future.
'First let me correct it ... "If they have done wrong to society they belong, then they must be punished" and this is the answer, where society involved, which means .. collective will !" '
Actually i did not imply that with my comment but since you put it up let me show you the hollowness of ur arguement. Our country has rule of law and a set of laws by which it is governed, now doing wrong to the society will be breaking these laws in our country and we have the Police and other mechanisms to deal with it. Vigilante justice and mob policing is not justice at all, and scenes in states like Bihar are better suited for Banana Republics of Africa not to a great nation like India.
don’t play with words here... We are not doing vigilante justice, we are not mo policing .. We are not physically attacking him, we are not hurting him.... we are just doing PROTEST !!
In your words protest is nonsense, not acceptable in any country. A lady is on hunger strike since last 8 years in AIIMS Delhi, and doing PROTEST for her state and citizens. I feel sad, people like you don’t have any respect to such peoples, always fight to stop PROTEST.
And the example you given Bihar... extremely wrong .. I want to you correct you, "We are not making verdict, and we are demanding Justice."
That’s what we are doing here "debate" Not killing to anybody !
And he goes on to say,
'Every country established a law system and they follow. These laws made for society and collective efforts only. Similar to that .. on lower level, every society has also some defined and undefined rules, which should be followed by society, and thats all this thread and debate is say.'
I agree with the first part of it that every country has a system of laws. There are only defined rules that one must follow, I as a citizen of India only have to follow my constitution and the rules of my nation/state/local elected bodies. I do not have to follow mob rules put forward by a large section of the society which varies from region to region. Undefined rules are part of informal social control, you can follow it or not as you wish.
For your knowledge, constitutions of some countries are just 2 page long. Can they live peacefully if do anything and by quoting that "no law has broken" ?. They are running based on each other's respect.
First decide yourself, why you want to quote democracy... . In previous posts you quoted democracy for supporting your facts, now you looks not satisfied with democracy and start talking negative about it.
'"We live in a society ... we must respect that society's dignity, rules and discipline." - thats one motto of this entire blog and debate.'
We Live in India and we must respect the rules of the land. The society's dignity, rules and discipline is rapidly evolving and hence it is a personal choice to follow it or not. As long as u do not break any rules you are doing nothing wrong.
I said simple sentence here.. and that is totally true, but opposing it by adding few words .. "rapidly evolving... personal choice .. law ...". You have decided just to oppose... only fight ..nothing else...
I ask all of the guys in this thread, who are reading it... is there anything wrong in my sentence ? without taking favorer of any one ..not mine not his.. ! I am quoting here once again what I said : "We live in a society ... we must respect that society's dignity, rules and discipline."
Jumbo, you just decided to be disagreeing always. I will say 1=1, then also you will start proving its not.
'Second, your understanding of democracy or communism is very very poor. This can be a big enough subject for debate, and I can discuss you hours and days and months but separately .. somewhere else .. not in this thread. But still I want to tell you the basic concepts.'
Now if its a new political theory you put forward, right or wrong I will debate it with u for hours. But I don't need you to teach me anything about democracy or any isms. If you think that my concepts of democracy are wrong, then you are entitled to that opinion.
I also don’t want to teach you democracy ...!! and the last sentence just shows your frustration ! No comment !!
Moving on to your 'lecture' on democracy.
And keep in mind, democracy is best implementation of "Collective will" ! Government built by "collective votes" only.
It is, I never said it is not. But for it to function properly there are to be certain checks which every modern democracy has so that the majority cannot make decisions against human rights and freedoms. That is why my dear friend many decisions taken by the majority governments/ and parliaments are quashed by courts, which are the guardians of the constitution and human rights. Look at the functioning democracies of this world all have the basic concept of protection of human rights, where they fail to do that the country will break up and will be over run by factions. The African republics like Congo Rwanda Uganda etc are perfect examples.
I already said above .. but let again .. First you decide what you want to say using word "Democracy". In previous posts you used this word always for your defending your views. " Freedom of expression .. democracy .. blah blah blah ". Now I explained what democracy is actually mean, you start barking negatively about democracy....????
What every you said here is anywhere related to this thread ? Democracy in Congo Rawanda Uganda ...? I live in democracy, and I am not saying anywhere to change democracy system in India.
'And now the worst thing you said in this thread "The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation, this is the basic principle we should use." ... Mr Jumbo .. you should keep in mind .. there are so many individual working behind your peace full life and getting deaths just for the country ... ! If they think only for them self .. then forget about your life.. your mother, sister, or wife .. I cant write here what can be happened with them. Your basic principle is so ridiculous, and to maintain that .. you should go to some jungle or any alien place .. !! '
First of all this is mumbo jumbo that makes little sense. But let me try to understand what you are trying to say here. If you are talking about the brave soldiers giving their lives for defending our country then i have nothing but utmost respect for them. Indian armed forces are a fully voluntary force ( means people are not conscripted, USA used conscription till end of Vietnam) So these people know what is required of them and when you sign an army contract be it as an NCO from a recruitment drive or as a CO from the NDA (nat def academy) you understand the risks involved in that job. And Army personnel have the same rights as you and me, an officer can for instance draw a picture of the prophet and publish it.
Haar .. so ridicules ..!! Solders signed contracts so they have to die ?. They have to die because, its there job only and they are getting paid for it. And what is concern here about what USA was doing till end of Vietnam ? You are always trying to pull debate like rubber, and jumping out from main subject. And in last line, you said "an officer can for instance draw a picture of the prophet and publish it", In your brain ... freedom means only painting or drawing, and that they officers can do .. ? hush !!!
The rights of one man is more important than the will of an entire nation. The basic thing here are the words right and will. Rights are essential it involves the right to live, travel, express etc. 'collective Will' is as in some thing the whole country want to happen.
So let me put it in a different context. for eg; imagine.
Majority of India wants to ban religious conversion by means of law.
No .. isn’t case here, in India ! No body wants that so you can’t say it "collective will" at all. Please try to put-up some related example at least.
A single individual or a few for that matter says its his basic right handed under the constitution to change his religion. Here in India because of our great constitution the RIGHT OF THE MAN will prevail over the WILL of the people.
I count understand what you want to say here ? IF you are saying people of indian can change religion ? Yes they can .. you also can !! I will not come to you and say anything.. ! no body else will say anything. You are right here, its your full freedom.
'Whats special in Mr Hussein ? He can do it but not I am ? Even I am following the same way you support and what Mr Hussein did ?. I asked the same thing before .. I just need identity to paint ! Just disclose identity of your mother, wife or sister, I am ready to paint ? so many artist can join together for this event, painters, photographers, art movie makers, .... so many !!'
I cannot speak for others and give permission to you to draw the pictures of other people, even if they are my family, because i believe they have the right to choose for themselves, As i said if its consensual it is fine, always.
Okey .. let introduce painters and photographs to your mother and others, they will ask directly ....Haaarrr ! You are not accepting the fact directly. why you can’t simply says ..."Yes I can’t do it. I can’t give the permission to paint my mother or any other in my family". just sticking on word "freedom" and manipulating them.
'Search on Google for 'Mr M F Hussein', and start counting search results one by one....do until you think sample rate is enough. Keep results in one hand, which is about his nude and Hindu-goddess art .. and in other hand, keep his rest of all art. Just compare those results, After that don't need to say any thing. Thats how he is lives in media, gaining popularity, discussing people about him, adding his name on everywhere as "key word"'
Quality of the results is what matters not quantity. For example there are more street dogs here in this world than pure-breads.
Admits ? right .. so you mean to say .. the results in one hand which is having high counts, doesn’t have quality and that’s like street dogs.
BTW, this high count result is all about his nude Hindu goddess’s paintings... !!
And that’s what I am saying .. !!! It doesn’t have "Quality" .. it is like "Street DOGs" !! Accept least now .. these are your words only !!!
'Now can you answer simple question .. honestly ..without playing with words....... "Have you ever discussed about any other artist, or about his art before, ... as much as you discussed or debated about Hussein here ?"'
I have not and i don't give two monkeys about Mr. Hussein either. I am here defending individual freedom and Mr. Hussein is just a subject to matter.
No ! your all conversation is about Mr Hussain, and from beginning you are trying to prove there pictures by giving so many references from mythology and other studies. When I said "Mr Hussain wins", you defended him !
If you say, you defending individual freedom,.... have you defended "individual freedom" some where in any other case, like individual freedom in Nagaland, and .. and . . ? There are so many issues about "freedom" in our country only, anywhere you contributed towards the word "Freedom".
You are liar here and just playing game of words... writing heavy text to show your intellectualism.
'I m not sure what what do you mean by limited society here .... ! but if it related to ALL in society the how you can think for few only ?'
His paintings were first published in some magazine of the tatas and distributed to a limited circle. Many of his works never saw light till you made a big fuzz about it.
Great ! So be on words only ... "Many of his works never saw light till you made a big fuzz about it." ... Yes that what I was saying since long time and you was not accepting...! Yes he started painting like that so that "we" start making "big fuzz" and he got the light !!!!! He created controversy, and got him popularity.
Thank god .. at least you said it now .. and I hope you will not make U turn from your own words.
'Just an good example for you.... last year, in Europe, a store launched bikini and lingerie sets, where Hindu god and goddess was printed,
Man's underwear was printed face of Ganesh ( what it mean you can understand it ?), a foot-wear sleeper, with Laxmi goddess. These all products was actually for beach hunters and they are mostly European... ! So can you justify this by saying that, it was limited aimed only at small section of the society ?'
It was done there and not here. European countries are very liberal and they will allow even jesus tattooed on private parts. The symbols of India,Greece,Egypt etc are ancient and they are a cause of curiosity for many fashion designers and westerners. The problem is that in India there is a continuation of the religion and in the other two examples there is a stagnation. So to them it do not mean offending Hindu gods, they are selling their product. For eg do you think the Beatles were serious about Yoga and Hinduism when they were here ?
Well some time you gives example from world, and here you are saying, it was done there not here. well It is done anywhere, my question was do you support it or not ?? Some time you says they are "Liberal" and some time you take word "Freedom" ? BTW, I didn’t write the second part of that story, An Indian Muslim seen those products and notified to his one of Hindu friend, then they contacted few organizations, and then those organizations, asked to withdrew those product to store chain owner and send a request to government also. By the this collective efforts, all stores taken off all those product... within 3 days after get noticed.
And they said, it hurts to a society, so we are taking it off !!!
And I count get what you want to establish here by example of Beatles and Young and Hinduism ?
'Now see what MF hussain did !
1) Before painting his "Ramanyana series", he involved in media, and said .. " This is want I am going to do ...."
2)While doing his job, he said to media .. This is I am doing now a days.. ..
3) After completion .. he shown and said to media .. This is what I have done .....'
Please prove the above said statements with valid links.
Definitely I will search and send it to you. But If you are a regular news reader, you might have already seen. When he was in India, he was always going to media and used to explain what he want to do further.
'For people like you, only matters individual .. then why you are trying to quote here country's law. Okey ..Fine... but everything related to society is not mentioned in law .. and it cant. does our law has what kind of relation should be in a family ? with whom you can have sex and with you cant ? It covers in our civilization and civilization doesn't runs by country's law. It runs by the collective thoughts and It is a continuous process of building a better society.'
Actually your understanding of the law is very poor. Incest is illegal in India. Incest here means sexual union between Mother Son, Father Daughter and Sister Brother. In many western countries having sex with your uncle or aunt is Incest. But in India it is not under law. There are reasons for that. In Kerala among Hindus of the Nair, and Kshatriya castes it was customary to marry your first Cousins of matriarchal lineage. ie. to marry ones uncles daughter or aunt's son. It is still practiced in many parts. In Tamil Nadu it was customary for some castes for and Uncle to marry the daughter of his sister, ie niece. There are historical references in Matriarchal societies of India where when a ruler dies, his nephew instead of his son marries his widowed aunt to become the next ruler. Hope this helps. All these are verifiable.
I know many things exists, but I can’t support them.... ! I said many times in this tread "Things are exists, but it doesn’t mean we got license to do that" ...
Well I can’t debate much on this .. Only I can say .. go ahead and enjoy sex with your aunt, cousin, neighbor’s wife !
'I believe, only our nation is the example to the world, where all people lives with different culture, different languages, different customs and so many other difference. Few of them are breaking this spirit like hussain.'
The spirit is broken by politicians who support and endorse violence against people like Hussien, Taslima and Rushdi. The government is to blame for this as well. I will admit freely that when minority sentiments are hurt our government is quicker to react than when the majority raises an issue. I am for a zero tolerance measure against all violent protests against these people. Peaceful protests must be allowed as it is their constitutional rights.
Well .. why you always barking unnecessarily ?... why are correlating to politicians in this thread. We are not politician at all. You only accept things if it is braking law .. then how you can support Taslima ?? She broken Bangladesh’s law, Yes she clearly under law .. go and find what charges filed on her and what she did is under there law or not ? About your next line ..... minority and majority ... what is relation of this here, .. we are not doing any minority, majority, politics debate here.
And for your knowledge .. we are doing peaceful protest only ..,.. have you seen any arm in my hand ?? Ohh ..its not bomb controller .. it’s just a black keyboard which I am using to express myself.
'Also .. what you said is correct and It should be applicable to mr hussein also, he should "learn to live with people of different views and tastes." ... well .. he left the country .. he don't want to live even here.. what more I can say... ! and don't say he left the country because of blah blah blah people, but he left the country because of so many court cases, and he do not have faith in court.'
No actually Mr. Hussein will be acquitted of most cases if he were present here. He left the country because the man is not willing to die for what he believes in, as in extremists would have tried to kill him and may be they would have.
There is provision of providing security to such peoples who fears, in our law and constitution, and he will get that. It’s under law ...yes .. and you support things which is in law only .. then why not quoted here Law... constitution ...blah blah ..! Well fine .. this is not debate here..
'Recently when supreme court given verdict in favor of mr hussain in a case, he said " Court has given justice and now I am eager to come to India ....!" This statement itself shows he waiting for court's positive verdict. If court had given verdict against him, will he come back ot India for living in Jail ? ... Haarrr ... Not at all .. because motive behind living in other country is only to escape from any kind of such situation which may build in any other case. '
You are right he is staying there because he fears not the law but the people. In a country of a billion you will get a few hundred thousand for any cause.
'True .. ! Yes ..you are right.. and here "view" is created by mr hussain and he and people like you trying to force on others. We didn't generated this "view" .. it was not even there ...! We are just protesting to mr hussain's "view". '
I am not trying to force my view on others. I am just giving mine and you are giving yours. When its forcing it means violent protests. Like the attacks on Miss Tasleema and all that. I have not even resorted to personal attacks like you have. If a communist government comes to power and says that you cannot express your views like you are now, I will be the first to protest against it. Because for me your freedom of expression is as important as anyone else's.
In last post you said that "Don’t force your views on others.." and here you quoted "I am not trying to force my view on others. I am just giving mine and you are giving yours." Good .. !atleast you said that !
You said, "if any communist government comes to power ...... I will be first to protest against it" Why when only communist will come in power .. why not now ?? We are also facing so many situations and you also given examples in discussion, like what happens in villages etc.. ! In Nagaland and other east states there are less freedom of expression ! Have you given you ever protest ? I given example above a lady in AIIMS Delhi is on bad on hunger strike since last 8 years.. just protesting for freedom of expression and to remove law which allow execute/jail without any trial.
No .. You never did .. You are just pseudo intellectual ? no you are not any kind of intellectual even !.... You are just a dog barking here with words like "Freedom" to support MR Hussain only !!!!!!!!
'If you don't want to listen anybody in thread and don't accept any answer of your debate, at least this yours sentence should apply on yourself...... "Do not force your view on others, that's all.'
Again pure fallacy. I make time to read every word of every thread, even ones making to unpleasant reading and then only do i reply. I am just stating my view, I am not forcing it down your throat. And by 'you' in that sentence i did not mean you as a person but the likes of you, people with similar views who use pressure tactics to force it on others. Like banning of screening of movies etc.
Well first thing . you was the one who supported to ban my posts in thread ! still blaming to people like us . hhuuu !
That was kinda long, sorry wanted to make sure I answered to every question.
Well it was defiantly log for me too .. and what I am concluding .. you just want to fight and taking discussion some time in direction and sometime other direction. You are running away on actual subject, and not accepting replies given by me or others. You are just a blind support of hussain .. nothing more then that.. ! writing big and heavy text doesn’t mean you are a intellectual !
This can go so very long .. weeks and years.. ! one who decided not to accept any fact at all, no body can make debate with him. Its sounds like "flute on buffalo" ...
I can debate much more but can’t devote any more time especially on people like you. It doesn’t mean that I am running away .. but I have many other real things to do ... not just MF hussain and Jumbo !
Thanks !!
'it means either you havent read my posts properly or you are really word-less . If asked such question...I certainly defined what a and b is. Can you point out any such illogical question ? If you found any thing, please quote here, I will try to explain it better.'
No need quote, the posts before this one and the last comprised of personal attacks and diversification of topic. Now you are using reverse psyhcology to accuse me of the same. !
'Well.. If any body in this thread is reading few last posts, can any one point out where I am giving different answers ? I am always to the point, precisely , try to be on the subject of thread.'
I was in many posts. Its you who diverted of the topic first and I am merely answering you.
'
Okey .. So do you mean it is right to have such things? Because they are exist somewhere in "many villages" ? Might be you say it is right thing, but I can't, and as I am not the LAW, not the government, PROTEST of such incidents is only my weapon.
I said many times in our debate, things are exists, it doesn’t means they are correct and should be applicable to all society. Similarly bad things done by hussain.
That is the process of evolution of civilization, many of us are working for better society and better future. '
You are not understanding me here. I never said its right to have such things. Read my post again I said things like a whole village turning against the rights of a man happens here as well.
''don’t play with words here... We are not doing vigilante justice, we are not mo policing .. We are not physically attacking him, we are not hurting him.... we are just doing PROTEST !!
In your words protest is nonsense, not acceptable in any country. A lady is on hunger strike since last 8 years in AIIMS Delhi, and doing PROTEST for her state and citizens. I feel sad, people like you don’t have any respect to such peoples, always fight to stop PROTEST.
And the example you given Bihar... extremely wrong .. I want to you correct you, "We are not making verdict, and we are demanding Justice."
That’s what we are doing here "debate" Not killing to anybody !''
I am never against peaceful protests. I have never said I am. Its your freedom to protest peacefully. As for hunger strikes. I stand for suicide and euthanasia as well.
'For your knowledge, constitutions of some countries are just 2 page long. Can they live peacefully if do anything and by quoting that "no law has broken" ?. They are running based on each other's respect.
First decide yourself, why you want to quote democracy... . In previous posts you quoted democracy for supporting your facts, now you looks not satisfied with democracy and start talking negative about it.'
Actually some countries do not have constitutions at all. I meant written ones. But they have rule of law, i said constitution and laws. I only have to obey the law of the land not of the society.
'
I said simple sentence here.. and that is totally true, but opposing it by adding few words .. "rapidly evolving... personal choice .. law ...". You have decided just to oppose... only fight ..nothing else...
I ask all of the guys in this thread, who are reading it... is there anything wrong in my sentence ? without taking favorer of any one ..not mine not his.. ! I am quoting here once again what I said : "We live in a society ... we must respect that society's dignity, rules and discipline."
Jumbo, you just decided to be disagreeing always. I will say 1=1, then also you will start proving its not. '
Actually all i meant to say was, rules of the society are constantly evolving, like could you expect to see live-in relationships a decade or two back. So you have to decide whether u follow society or not. Its a choice, obeying the law of the nation is not.
'I also don’t want to teach you democracy ...!! and the last sentence just shows your frustration ! No comment !!'
Thank God for that. Yes the last sentence shows my frustration at your lack of understanding.
'I already said above .. but let again .. First you decide what you want to say using word "Democracy". In previous posts you used this word always for your defending your views. " Freedom of expression .. democracy .. blah blah blah ". Now I explained what democracy is actually mean, you start barking negatively about democracy....????
What every you said here is anywhere related to this thread ? Democracy in Congo Rawanda Uganda ...? I live in democracy, and I am not saying anywhere to change democracy system in India. '
First of all i did not criticize democracy. I was just explaining that human rights were the corner stone of democracy. The will of majority alone cannot make a democracy. All successful democracies have a list of rights that cannot be violated by any government. Countries who prevent to protect these rights end up in chaos like Congo now is and Rwanda and Uganda were earlier. Please read comments before criticism.
'Haar .. so ridicules ..!! Solders signed contracts so they have to die ?. They have to die because, its there job only and they are getting paid for it. And what is concern here about what USA was doing till end of Vietnam ? You are always trying to pull debate like rubber, and jumping out from main subject. And in last line, you said "an officer can for instance draw a picture of the prophet and publish it", In your brain ... freedom means only painting or drawing, and that they officers can do .. ? hush !!!'
No i never said what you just stated. I only said when as a soldier you sign your military contract you know off the risks involved. In many countries military service is compulsory, It was till 70s in the US, still is compulsory in Israel, but in our country its voluntary, means you join the force because you want to do it and you have a choice whether or not to join and you know the risks involved.
My last sentence was hypothetical to prove that even men of military have their freedom of expression. Be it drawing nude pictures, writing an article against the role of Islam in promoting terrorism or anything you want.
'No .. isn’t case here, in India ! No body wants that so you can’t say it "collective will" at all. Please try to put-up some related example at least.'
It was just an example, I used the words eg. and IF meaning it was hypothetical. As in if that happens the courts will not stand for it.
'I count understand what you want to say here ? IF you are saying people of indian can change religion ? Yes they can .. you also can !! I will not come to you and say anything.. ! no body else will say anything. You are right here, its your full freedom.'
It was just an example, I never said that it has happened already. But you have to say certain legislation in Gujarat with regards to it are alarming and cases are pending in the court for the same. Thanks for agreeing with me on this :).
'Okey .. let introduce painters and photographs to your mother and others, they will ask directly ....Haaarrr ! You are not accepting the fact directly. why you can’t simply says ..."Yes I can’t do it. I can’t give the permission to paint my mother or any other in my family". just sticking on word "freedom" and manipulating them. '
If some one wants to paint my wife they should ask my wife, same with my mother. I follow the freedom I speak here off in my daily life. All majors in my family have the right to choose what they want to so if indeed that happens it would be up to her to decide.
'Admits ? right .. so you mean to say .. the results in one hand which is having high counts, doesn’t have quality and that’s like street dogs.
BTW, this high count result is all about his nude Hindu goddess’s paintings... !!
And that’s what I am saying .. !!! It doesn’t have "Quality" .. it is like "Street DOGs" !! Accept least now .. these are your words only !!'
Whichever way i stick by what I say. Which is more results are not ideally the best way to go. And who told you that I liked seeing any goddesses naked ? I have to study it because its art, I only see the art. I do not like the paintings of Hussein am just defending his rights.
'
No ! your all conversation is about Mr Hussain, and from beginning you are trying to prove there pictures by giving so many references from mythology and other studies. When I said "Mr Hussain wins", you defended him !
If you say, you defending individual freedom,.... have you defended "individual freedom" some where in any other case, like individual freedom in Nagaland, and .. and . . ? There are so many issues about "freedom" in our country only, anywhere you contributed towards the word "Freedom".
You are liar here and just playing game of words... writing heavy text to show your intellectualism. '
I defended Mr Husseins right to draw. I reffered to the texts to show you that it is not a cardinal sin like you put out.
Yes in Nagaland and Yes in Kashmir and all the states indivudal freedom must be protected. That don't mean that you must allow secessionist activities. First we must stop the moral policing by islamic extremists.
'You are liar here and just playing game of words... writing heavy text to show your intellectualism.'
That is an insult. I am not playing games here. I never claimed to be of any intellect. I am sorry if you think I am writing heavy text, I do not put in any heavy words to make it sound that way, its just the way i speak and write.
'Great ! So be on words only ... "Many of his works never saw light till you made a big fuzz about it." ... Yes that what I was saying since long time and you was not accepting...! Yes he started painting like that so that "we" start making "big fuzz" and he got the light !!!!! He created controversy, and got him popularity.
Thank god .. at least you said it now .. and I hope you will not make U turn from your own words.'
No again you are wrong. Mr Hussein did not draw it to create controversy. And it was relatively unknown till the extremists made a big fuzz about it. So they in turn made a good fortune for him.
'Well some time you gives example from world, and here you are saying, it was done there not here. well It is done anywhere, my question was do you support it or not ?? Some time you says they are "Liberal" and some time you take word "Freedom" ? BTW, I didn’t write the second part of that story, An Indian Muslim seen those products and notified to his one of Hindu friend, then they contacted few organizations, and then those organizations, asked to withdrew those product to store chain owner and send a request to government also. By the this collective efforts, all stores taken off all those product... within 3 days after get noticed.
And they said, it hurts to a society, so we are taking it off !!!
And I count get what you want to establish here by example of Beatles and Young and Hinduism ?'
That was very cowardly of the government to take the line off. But as it is achieved by peaceful means I cannot complain. About Beatles I just used their example to tell you that its fashionable for the westerners to associate themselves with oriental images/practices etc in the 60s/70s it was mainly India and Yoga and Hinduism now a days its more China Tai Chi and stuff.
'Definitely I will search and send it to you. But If you are a regular news reader, you might have already seen. When he was in India, he was always going to media and used to explain what he want to do further. '
Please do that.
'I know many things exists, but I can’t support them.... ! I said many times in this tread "Things are exists, but it doesn’t mean we got license to do that" ...
Well I can’t debate much on this .. Only I can say .. go ahead and enjoy sex with your aunt, cousin, neighbor’s wife !'
I never said i support them either. And i was just saying these things exist and many people practice it and it was ok under the law. The last bunch of personal insults were uncalled for.
'
Well .. why you always barking unnecessarily ?... why are correlating to politicians in this thread. We are not politician at all. You only accept things if it is braking law .. then how you can support Taslima ?? She broken Bangladesh’s law, Yes she clearly under law .. go and find what charges filed on her and what she did is under there law or not ? About your next line ..... minority and majority ... what is relation of this here, .. we are not doing any minority, majority, politics debate here.
And for your knowledge .. we are doing peaceful protest only ..,.. have you seen any arm in my hand ?? Ohh ..its not bomb controller .. it’s just a black keyboard which I am using to express myself.'
Taslima did not break any Indian laws and did not commit criminal or fraud charges in her home country. We believe more in freedom and we support her because of that. H.H Dalai Lama have violated Chinese law, do you want him to be handed over to Chinese ? NO. I Know i would rather go to war with China than to give up that mean who is our guest. I never said peaceful protests are wrong, I am all for it that is why I am still debating with you. But you resort to personal attacks which are not peaceful.
'
There is provision of providing security to such peoples who fears, in our law and constitution, and he will get that. It’s under law ...yes .. and you support things which is in law only .. then why not quoted here Law... constitution ...blah blah ..! Well fine .. this is not debate here..'
There is provision. But he may prefer a free life in Dubai than being under heavy protection here. Its a matter of choice.
'In last post you said that "Don’t force your views on others.." and here you quoted "I am not trying to force my view on others. I am just giving mine and you are giving yours." Good .. !atleast you said that !
You said, "if any communist government comes to power ...... I will be first to protest against it" Why when only communist will come in power .. why not now ?? We are also facing so many situations and you also given examples in discussion, like what happens in villages etc.. ! In Nagaland and other east states there are less freedom of expression ! Have you given you ever protest ? I given example above a lady in AIIMS Delhi is on bad on hunger strike since last 8 years.. just protesting for freedom of expression and to remove law which allow execute/jail without any trial.
No .. You never did .. You are just pseudo intellectual ? no you are not any kind of intellectual even !.... You are just a dog barking here with words like "Freedom" to support MR Hussain only !!!!!!!!'
You know nothing about me not even my identity and you go to the conclusion that I do not protest in the real world. Let me just say this that when I was a student I protested against lack of democracy in collages ( means if a student organization has death grip on a college they won't let other parties contest) and got really beaten up for it. I can ask a similar question to you, but i would rather not because who am I to judge some one online.
Get a grip of urself. Abuses will get you nowhere.
'Well it was defiantly log for me too .. and what I am concluding .. you just want to fight and taking discussion some time in direction and sometime other direction. You are running away on actual subject, and not accepting replies given by me or others. You are just a blind support of hussain .. nothing more then that.. ! writing big and heavy text doesn’t mean you are a intellectual !
This can go so very long .. weeks and years.. ! one who decided not to accept any fact at all, no body can make debate with him. Its sounds like "flute on buffalo" ...
I can debate much more but can’t devote any more time especially on people like you. It doesn’t mean that I am running away .. but I have many other real things to do ... not just MF hussain and Jumbo ! '
Any one who has read all the posts will realize who went off topic first. I am not a supporter of Hussein but of freedom.
Get on with the 'real' things then.
ayyapadas! dont waste your time with people who got political intentions! these are power hungry people and hate driven wild dogs!
Jumbo,
your basic assumptions are not FALSIFIABLE. I understand that u r brain washed by the leftist idea of freedom. in reality it is not ealistic. thats why you CLEVERLY ESACAPED without answering one important question.
WHY SHOULD ANY ONE TAKE YOUR MOTHER'S or WIFE's Permission before taking 'bad' angled photographs of them,
Dont quote Indian Law, for under our law Hussain has hurt 'cultural sensitivies'. SO dont quote law.
Why should any one ask their permission. You might be aware, even 'looking at a female in a "wrong way" can be taken molestation as per law. If some one is showing a bad sexual symbol to a woman, even that is punishable. " You cannot say, showing sexual symbol is my freedom and sexuality is natural. SO I can show symbol, if the girl is noit interested, let her not look this way.
Dear Brother, DOnt be blinded by ideologies. They ultimately dont work. REMEMBER
R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y is a greater idea than F R E E D O M.
We wrongly assume at the young ages that FREEDOM is the more precious word, but as time passes one realises the shallow nature of the word and realises responsbility is much greater a concept. Every one should have freedom, but he should be intelligent enough to have responsibility to use it.
DONT FORGET TO ANSWER THE
Q U E S T I O N. Answer only that question and please be direct to the point.
"Freedom with Responsibiltiy and Sensitivity is destructive and dangerous".
Dear Rahul,
I am not a leftist. I am against all curbs of human freedom. I am a libertarian. As I live here I respect the laws of this country even if they are against my ideals. You may not agree with me but I am not brainwashed.
'
WHY SHOULD ANY ONE TAKE YOUR MOTHER'S or WIFE's Permission before taking 'bad' angled photographs of them'
You should ask the person who want to take the hypothetical photographs not me. All I said is I cannot listen to them.
'Dont quote Indian Law, for under our law Hussain has hurt 'cultural sensitivies'. SO dont quote law.'
Is that why most cases against Mr. Hussein are dismissed or will be dismissed if he attends the court.
'Why should any one ask their permission. You might be aware, even 'looking at a female in a "wrong way" can be taken molestation as per law. If some one is showing a bad sexual symbol to a woman, even that is punishable. " You cannot say, showing sexual symbol is my freedom and sexuality is natural. SO I can show symbol, if the girl is noit interested, let her not look this way.'
The first sentence is not true. If so please quote the relevant rule and article. Looking at a female in anyway is not molestation. Gesturing and speaking badly is under our law. Showing sexual symbol to a person who do not like it is not natural and therefore a punishable offense. However it depends on consent as well if the girl is ok with it then no 3rd party can intervene.
'Dear Brother, DOnt be blinded by ideologies. They ultimately dont work. REMEMBER
R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y is a greater idea than F R E E D O M.'
Saying that in caps will not make it true. Responsibility most of the time is voluntary while freedom is a right. The basic rule is your freedoms should not hurt the similar freedoms of others.
'We wrongly assume at the young ages that FREEDOM is the more precious word, but as time passes one realises the shallow nature of the word and realises responsbility is much greater a concept. Every one should have freedom, but he should be intelligent enough to have responsibility to use it.'
Actually irresponsible use of one's freedom is prevented in different laws of the nation. We do not need any more social controls than our relevant laws.
'"Freedom with Responsibiltiy and Sensitivity is destructive and dangerous".'
I think you mean freedom without responsibility. I agree to that to an extent and its been covered in almost all modern democracies under the rules. One may not trample up on the rights of others. ie. for eg: freedom of speech is not a license to abuse anyone verbally. But as you can see there are relevant laws barring it. Sensitivities I have a different opinion about that, because I think in a modern nation of many faiths, one cannot do many things without being at loggerheads with some religion sect, and in our country casts etc. Abusing a god in public is insensitive and punishable but drawing a picture of a god with ones freedom to express his thoughts is not.
I dont know Jumbo what will make you convince, you are always giving arguments only to fight.
Every time in thread you said you only accept Law, Nation's Law, Land's Law. Now when some one is giving reference of Law also, you start arguments by if ..then ..else and clauses.
Look what Rahul said "You cannot say, showing sexual symbol is my freedom and sexuality is natural. SO I can show symbol, if the girl is not interested, let her not look this way.'"
Why are not accepting this ? Simply in Yes or NO instead of dragging it using "however .. blah blah blah".
Why are you not accepting simply a law and trying to escape by saying "however...."
Thats what you are doing in this full thread, dragging into some other direction using blah blah clauses.
For ex. you answered my question in same way about Taslima.( I never quoted her name from my side, I just raised question on your example. ), First of all, I am not against with her, let me be nutral.
1) "Taslima borken Law of her country, her Land"
2) "Dalai Lama broken law of his country,"
-- So according to your theory, as you said many times "Only Law, Nation's Law, Land's Law......" both are punishable or not ??
Say Yes or No ?
Dont say that Indian laws should be apply on him....Obviously, law of that land is applicable where you live. Acording to your theory, you cant defend them, Yahh ..according to my theory, still you can have a chance to defend them.
Simply Answer Yes or Not ? Dont drag in other direction by adding clauses.... if ..that .. like this .. for example .. blah blah ...
Its only and only from your theory where, where you only want to follow land's law. And in that case you should not support Taslima and Dalai lama.
However you support them or not, its not subject here, I am only replying on your examples which you had given. On your theory
"Only and Only Law of nation"
I also admits Law .. 100%, and it should be followed ! I m just adding "Respect, discipline and society" with nation's law.
Now, as you added name of Mr. Dalai Lama, Do you know Dalai Lama cant use his "Freedom of Expression" in India. He cant speak against china, he cant speak for Tibbat freedom. This is documented.
Ever you fought for Dalai Lama, as he dont have "Freedom of Expression" ?
Every time you are fighting here by quoting "I am fighting for Freedom of Expression", and that's not true at all ..
I asked you earlier and asking again, and you cleverly escaped, Is there any other matter, issue .. where you are working for achieving "Freedom of Expression" ?
Be realistic .... and develop habit of acceptance, If some one proves.
Or you need to get a doctor to check up your digestion system.
great work rahul.
i would like to say to shilpa that if m f doing great work then why he dont show his work on other religion or the religion he belongs too. n he should show his creativity in his own home because freedom doesn't mean this, ones freedom ends from where others noes start.
great work rahul.
i would like to say to shilpa that if m f doing great work then why he dont show his work on other religion or the religion he belongs too. n he should show his creativity in his own home because freedom doesn't mean this, ones freedom ends from where others noes start.
Devid,
'I dont know Jumbo what will make you convince, you are always giving arguments only to fight.'
We are just debating here and I am just using my freedom of expression to express my point of view. Have i ever questioned your right to do the same ? I am not fighting here but my beliefs in freedom are rock solid and will not melt in the face of fascist manipulation.
'Every time in thread you said you only accept Law, Nation's Law, Land's Law. Now when some one is giving reference of Law also, you start arguments by if ..then ..else and clauses.'
Not every time. Whatever i say about the law is verifiable if you have the relevant knowledge or if you know a lawyer. I only counter when people say things which are not true.
'Look what Rahul said "You cannot say, showing sexual symbol is my freedom and sexuality is natural. SO I can show symbol, if the girl is not interested, let her not look this way.'"
Why are not accepting this ? Simply in Yes or NO instead of dragging it using "however .. blah blah blah".'
Why do I have to accept it ? If you agree with him you accept it. I have given the answer to his question in the reply to him, have I not. Not all questions cannot be answered in simple Yes and NO. Yes and No questions are often misused as traps. I answer questions in my terms not in the asker's terms.
'Why are you not accepting simply a law and trying to escape by saying "however...."'
I did not get you there. I accept things which are true. Showing a bad gesture to a girl is trampling up on her freedom. If shes not consenting she can complain to the authorities. But there is no law against 'looking' at a person in anyway.
'Thats what you are doing in this full thread, dragging into some other direction using blah blah clauses.'
When you stray from the topic with examples which are out of the topic, I answer them and counter them the same way. Stop doing it and I will do the same.
'
For ex. you answered my question in same way about Taslima.( I never quoted her name from my side, I just raised question on your example. ), First of all, I am not against with her, let me be nutral.
1) "Taslima borken Law of her country, her Land"
2) "Dalai Lama broken law of his country,"
-- So according to your theory, as you said many times "Only Law, Nation's Law, Land's Law......" both are punishable or not ??
Say Yes or No ?'
I am not a Bangladeshi or Chinese citizen. I should only abide by the laws of my country. And similarly Taslima and H.H. Dalai Lama are our guests. They have broken laws in their respective countries, yes, but these draconian laws have no standing in Indian soil, therefore both are not punishable and Taslima should be given asylum. Just ask your puppet to answer you the way you want to in...Yes or No..or make a questionnaire and mail me.
'Dont say that Indian laws should be apply on him....Obviously, law of that land is applicable where you live. Acording to your theory, you cant defend them, Yahh ..according to my theory, still you can have a chance to defend them.'
What theory are you talking about ? What is my theory ? What is your's ? I have not been proposing any theories here. I defend him because he has done nothing wrong under our law and is bacon of freedom.
'
Simply Answer Yes or Not ? Dont drag in other direction by adding clauses.... if ..that .. like this .. for example .. blah blah ...
Its only and only from your theory where, where you only want to follow land's law. And in that case you should not support Taslima and Dalai lama.'
Listen if you cannot comprehend what I say just say you do not understand. Don't try to act wise and say all am saying is blah blah, If so do not answer to my posts, you have the choice am not putting this down your throat. I want to follow the lands law yes, and my country(land) is India a sovereign democratic republic with human rights and draconian laws of China and Bangladesh are not applicable here and hence Taslima and H.H Dalai Lama are innocent.
'However you support them or not, its not subject here, I am only replying on your examples which you had given. On your theory
"Only and Only Law of nation"'
Yes i stand by it. I am talking about my country here well our country not of Chinkyland and Bangladesh.
'I also admits Law .. 100%, and it should be followed ! I m just adding "Respect, discipline and society" with nation's law.'
Like I said Indian law gives a lot of respect to the society even more than many western democracies, there is no need for any other forms of social control here. Period.
'Now, as you added name of Mr. Dalai Lama, Do you know Dalai Lama cant use his "Freedom of Expression" in India. He cant speak against china, he cant speak for Tibbat freedom. This is documented.'
He has done so in the past. He is not doing so now because he has softened his stance and accepts Tibet's full independence is not possible. But He still heads Tibetan government in exile, you cannot be more Anti-China than that. Do you think India, though officially recognizes Tibet as a part of china, wants it to remain so. Its a diplomatic ploy for the current situation.
'Ever you fought for Dalai Lama, as he dont have "Freedom of Expression" ?'
He does, Even though he is not a citizen of India there are few restrictions on his travel and speeches. He condemned china severely for cracking down the latest uprising in Lhasa a few months ago. Read up if you have not.
'Every time you are fighting here by quoting "I am fighting for Freedom of Expression", and that's not true at all ..
I asked you earlier and asking again, and you cleverly escaped, Is there any other matter, issue .. where you are working for achieving "Freedom of Expression" ?'
I have answered your personal question which was not in line with an anonymous online debate. And yes debating against chauvinists like you is also working for the cause.
'Be realistic .... and develop habit of acceptance, If some one proves.'
You have proven nothing more than the fact that you cannot stand a different point of view. I pity you for that.
'Or you need to get a doctor to check up your digestion system.'
Was that meant to be funny? I did not laugh, may be I need a checkup for my lack of sense of humor.
For some one who accused me of deviating from the topic, you spent almost all your post talking abt Taslima and H.H Dalai Lama. Now you know how debates change topic, and its you who started to discuss off topic things first.
Rahul, the whole system is corrupt. Dont u think our fucking govt doesnt know its illegal? Or dont u think, they r unable to make some way out. They can, but they dont want, 'coz they wont acheive anything out of it. They r njoing their bread happily. Any1 who has to do any thing he do, & who doesnt hav to, give him everything he wont do. The royal supreme court & parliament of India is shining with the blood, remember the congress govt encouraged Afzal? No, that is why u went so sentimental. In this sweat country, we the citizens dont have any freedom to querry the one we pay our taxes, whom we vote, & they njoy. I dont find any change in the near future that may occur. So, let it happen, ur voice will also be dumped. Bye da way, if u r interested in writting something, I'm sending u 2 links http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/kali-yantra-classic-thong/26272450 & http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/indian-parts-classic-thong/74696721
my Email ID: rohitjan5@yahoo.co.in
Namaste ROHIT, DAVID, JUMBO
Rohit is right, our nation's system is corrupt and vote bank driven.But we will haveto change it. We want to unite nation loving Indians, the obstacle is the pseduo intellectualism of people like Jumbo. We need people like David who are willing to invest time and energy on the youth like Jumbo and make them realise that their whole thought process is 'injected into them so that we can be divided. so that we can never unite as Indians,'
DEAR JUMBO,
It is sad to see you not having answers. It is not your problem. It is your positions problem.
You are not able to answer a simple question !!!!
1) If some one shows a vulgar sexual symbol to a girl in college. should any action be taken?
or
If some one paints a girl in his college in vulgar and nude form (without her consent), should an action be taken?
be Honest, If that girl is ur sister. Wont you react?
And how long will you survive with this weak argument like, 'i dont have any problem even if my sister is painted with her permission'.
If you are a true brother, you will not allow that. If you are a true son, you will not allow that.
UNFortunately my motherland who has a lot of garbage pseudo-intelectuls who evn supported CHina when they attacked India in 1962. Butby God's grace, she also has her good sons who wil fight for her honour, her land, her people. Vandee Mataram
Oh my God !!
"For some one who accused me of deviating from the topic, you spent almost all your post talking abt Taslima and H.H Dalai Lama. Now you know how debates change topic, and its you who started to discuss off topic things first. "
Who introduced Taslima to this thread ?
Who introduced Dalai Lama to this thread ??
Jumbo .. you need to go back and see your posts !!
And I have have proven you all the way wrong .. on every reply !!
Any one who is reading this thread, say honestly ... un-biased & neutral !
Now you already blamed for diverting thread, Let me say one more thing ...
YOU are acting here Just like "Ram Jethamlani in Case of Jesica Lal"
where all accused was released from charges, and later he was defending them with game of words and laws, and was diverting !
Great .. Jumbo Great .. "Chit bhi meri .. pat bhi meri .. anta mere baap kaa"
Carry On ...
forgot to give you the proof for molestation, sexual harassment LAWS
http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/rape_laws.htm
please check and understand dear. Our nation needs loyal, committed, brave youngsters with rational intelligence and emotional conviction. We are on for a war with in some years, with the enemy with in. Jai Hind
Hello Rahul,
DEAR JUMBO,
It is sad to see you not having answers. It is not your problem. It is your positions problem.
You are not able to answer a simple question !!!!
1) If some one shows a vulgar sexual symbol to a girl in college. should any action be taken?
or
If some one paints a girl in his college in vulgar and nude form (without her consent), should an action be taken?
be Honest, If that girl is ur sister. Wont you react? '
Yes action must be taken and I would react if shes my sister. I always maintained this stance that, because its a violation of the girls' rights its punishable under law. Why do you even make this point when i agreed to it in the first place.
'And how long will you survive with this weak argument like, 'i dont have any problem even if my sister is painted with her permission'.
If you are a true brother, you will not allow that. If you are a true son, you will not allow that.'
May be am not true then, But my stance is the same if its with their consent providing that they are not minors its OK under law. And even if I do not like it I will respect their decision on a personal matter like that.
'UNFortunately my motherland who has a lot of garbage pseudo-intelectuls who evn supported CHina when they attacked India in 1962. Butby God's grace, she also has her good sons who wil fight for her honour, her land, her people. Vandee Mataram'
Yes i know, I am not one of them, I believe that the chinese are our main threats in this new millenium.
'forgot to give you the proof for molestation, sexual harassment LAWS
http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/rape_laws.htm
please check and understand dear. Our nation needs loyal, committed, brave youngsters with rational intelligence and emotional conviction. We are on for a war with in some years, with the enemy with in. Jai Hind'
There is nothing in that link that's new, in my previous posts I have maintained that gesturing equals to sexual molestation, but LOOKING at a person does not, and it is not state otherwise in the pages you have given.
'Oh my God !!
"For some one who accused me of deviating from the topic, you spent almost all your post talking abt Taslima and H.H Dalai Lama. Now you know how debates change topic, and its you who started to discuss off topic things first. "
Who introduced Taslima to this thread ?
Who introduced Dalai Lama to this thread ??
Jumbo .. you need to go back and see your posts !!
And I have have proven you all the way wrong .. on every reply !!
Any one who is reading this thread, say honestly ... un-biased & neutral !'
Yes i brought Taslima to this thread after you went on to talk about painting my mother and sister and you strayed from the topic first, and i just followed to counter it. And its ok, its to prove a point.
'Great .. Jumbo Great .. "Chit bhi meri .. pat bhi meri .. anta mere baap kaa"
Carry On ...'
Speak in English as my grasp of Hindi is poor.
dear jumbo,
iam sorry that i couldnt answer you for a long time.i was busy with my exams.anyway, read your blogs.i just have some questions 4 you.
if mf hussain needs to paint nudity at all,why did he chose hindu Gods?
even though the artistic values of those paintings are questionable,why are people like you on the run for promoting him?
the pseudo-secularists and media persons on support of mf hussain are maintaining a double standard in taslima's case.why?
the answer to these you all know.but you are propagating pro-communist propaganda to meet ur ulterior motives.
hinduism is centuaries old and the puranas and charitas u mention were written by people living at that time.and the temples so old may reflect the dress code of that time.but we are living in a different era .nudity is ok,but when it hurts the religious sentiments of millions ,it is to be banned.see..the maharashtra govt has banned a film as it contains some dialogues that may hurt the maratha sentiments.why are you people not raising your voice against it?
by asking others to read puranas and see temples you urself have not seen,dont make a fool of urself jumbo.and what the hell does 'jumbo' in any language mean?u were blaming for a david name!
u agree or not...u call fascism or anything....we will never allow destroying our religion for money and publicity!
'dear jumbo,
iam sorry that i couldnt answer you for a long time.i was busy with my exams.anyway, read your blogs.i just have some questions 4 you.
if mf hussain needs to paint nudity at all,why did he chose hindu Gods?'
You must ask that question to Mr. Hussein not me. Whatever he drew he was well with in his freedom of expression to do it.
'even though the artistic values of those paintings are questionable,why are people like you on the run for promoting him?
the pseudo-secularists and media persons on support of mf hussain are maintaining a double standard in taslima's case.why?'
Have u read my comments on taslima in the previous posts pegasus ? I defend taslima and others like her as well, the likes of salman rushdi etc. I am a secularist, this country may be a hindu majority but never will it be run the way the radicals want to run it.
'the answer to these you all know.but you are propagating pro-communist propaganda to meet ur ulterior motives. '
I am anti-communist to the core. But if its a hard choice between fascism and communism, i will always choose the latter.
'hinduism is centuaries old and the puranas and charitas u mention were written by people living at that time.and the temples so old may reflect the dress code of that time.but we are living in a different era .nudity is ok,but when it hurts the religious sentiments of millions ,it is to be banned.'
Sorta double standardish is it not ? Why then restrict temple entry to non-hindus, why not promote the religion like the christians do ? And most of all why is most of north india following the caste system and atrocities against the Dalits ? The reason is that you want to selectively forget the past and selectively retain it to meet your ends. In this world its impossible to not hurt feelings of one community or other, all i say is that the ones who are supposedly hurt have the choice not to watch it.
'see..the maharashtra govt has banned a film as it contains some dialogues that may hurt the maratha sentiments.why are you people not raising your voice against it?'
What makes you think so ? Raj thackerey and the likes of him are the biggest threat to the unity of India ? Today he fights against north Indians tmrw he will against south Indians ? Even the congress workers in Maharashtra attacked the home of a journalist who criticised the need for a sivaji statue in the sea. I assure you such things would not happen in a state like Kerala where the people are not blinded by regional and religious sentiments. Here films are seldom banned by the state government, as far as i know most people here wanted to see movies like black friday which was banned by the central govt. Our govt and courts threw out petitons by Christians so as to not show davinci code.
'by asking others to read puranas and see temples you urself have not seen,dont make a fool of urself jumbo.and what the hell does 'jumbo' in any language mean?u were blaming for a david name!
u agree or not...u call fascism or anything....we will never allow destroying our religion for money and publicity!'
I have masters in archaeology and have visited most temples of North and South India and Many on the eastern side. And its essential to learn the Purana when you have a subject called Hindu Iconography to study. Once you study it then you would realize such protests against the paintings for Mr. Hussein are very contradictory. Jumbo means just Jumbo have you not heard of Jumbo circus ? I don't wish to reveal my real name for privacy concerns. But its a cheap tactic to use a name like Devid and talk hindutva.
This is world heritage week, And in a program I attended yesterday, organized by the ASI and the State archaeology dept of kerala, Our minister for education pointed out that we should be ashamed of ourselves for destroying a monument as wonderful as the Baburi Masjid, which was protected under the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Sites and Remains Act of 1958, by some nut case radical hindus. It was also reassuring that our courts and constitution will never allow anyone to build over that site. So Mr. Pegasus, We will never allow you to destroy the secularist nature of this country or its minorities.
Dear Jumbo, A N S W E R THIS
(1) If you are student of Archaelogy, then you must have understood that 100's of temples were destroyed by the invading religious lunatics, right?
(2) See, that doesnt justify the demoliton of SOME PARTS of Babri
Masjid. I agree. BUT WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU SECULARISTS WHEN
3.75 Lakh KASHMIRI HINDUS ARE THROWN out of Kashmir.It is one of the largest exodus in Human history. Why no body talks abt it.? 1000's of Hindu girls were raped in front of their mother and father, 3.75 lakhs had to leave all they have earned in a life time to the fundamentalist inspired by Pakistan. WHERE WERE YOU PEOPLE THEN.
(3) Every year 200 crores is given to Haj Subsidy, Muslims are given reservation in job and education. Lakhs of Muslim girls are given MINORITY Reservation and Scholarships. Where the hell is ur secularism.
And you know what Indian Govt does. TELL LIE IN SUPREME COURT OF INDIA, that PILGRIMS TO SABARIMALA are given SUBSIDY.
WHEN THE SO-CALLED COmmunist, Secular forces throw out TASLIMA from BENGAL and give award to Hussain in Kerala.
(4) SABARIMALA gives the stateof Kerala10,000 crores in 2 months time. The temple doesnt even have a website. WHY, atheists and communists rule. Churches are ruled by Christians, Mosques by Muslims...Why are temples ruled by the SECULAR GOVT??
PROOFS OF WHAT I TOLD IN THE LAST POST
1) Sabarimala gives 10,000 crores to Kerala - Minister Sudhakaran
http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/10/stories/2006111019970500.htm
2) Govt lying and getting caught red handed at Supreme Court. Govt lied that Sabarimala pilgrims are given subsidy - Times of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2004091.cms
3) lakhs of Kashmiri Hindus ousted from Kashmir - American Chronicle
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/72039
4) India was always secular, we always welcomed the coming Christians and Muslims. But does Secularism means having aversion towards Hindus ?
Hi Rahul,
You are 100% correct, whatever you said, I have many more words to add on this topic !
But look, what the people like Jubmo doing ... they are just playing game of words, coming up more and more extra things, just diverting subject. Just showing there intellectualism.
I answered his all the posts, to the points, logical with proofs, even pointed out contractions in his own statements.
He is not even standing on his own words, changing face with the situations and answers what he just likes.
Most of time he is just blaming to us using heavy words and start fighting with new examples and new topics.... nothing else.
Still I answered his all posts, all points. But till when we can entertain such idiots ?.
If anyone is reading this thread, as un-biased, may comment !
In between, poocha jumps without any facts and thoughts on subject, just start blaming the peoples who is answering such "super-intellectuals"
I live in New York, what the hell political gain for me ? whats the political gain for Rahul ? Is he is going to get parliament seat ? what for others who is working in this tread ??
We have so many things to do .. We are not suffering with one problem. I live in New York, working in a one of the top most financial company and fighting with current economic crises world wide. My contribution may be .00001% or even unknown, but at least we are working .. working hard more then 15-16 hours a day. you can say its because getting paid... yahh ..still... working for a better reason, working for better society, working for better world.
Jumbo - "I don't wish to reveal my real name for privacy concerns. But its a cheap tactic to use a name like Devid and talk hindutva. "
Huhh ..so you was looking my religion in my name ?
I feel Still better Identity .. looks like a human .. Not the Circus ... LOL !!!
Going further ... Jumbo ..Please read again and again my posts and reply .. I never .. not a single time discussed about "Hindutva" , This is you ... you are the super-intellectual-man, who claims himself as secular but always drag religion ... how ridicules you are trying to relate my identity even, and hiding your ass.
But yahh ... you are welcome, if you want to talk on hindutwa also. But I don't feel this is the right place to discuss hindutwa, why not you start a separate blog, I will answer all of your queries.
Ahh..
Rahul, I Just seen your recent posts.. i m going one by one on my emails !
I was avoding fight with Jumbo on relision and hindutva, because he is just dragging reision for diverting topic, and I claimed always this topic is nothing to do with religion. Its basically misusing identity, posing them wrongly, hurting sentiments of a society, misusing freedom, killing current civilization, getting cover in media and earning LOT of money with cheap tricks.
And thanks for your replies, full of facts and proofs.
Rahul
'(1) If you are student of Archaelogy, then you must have understood that 100's of temples were destroyed by the invading religious lunatics, right?'
Not all temples were destroyed some were, majority are still there to be seen.
'2) See, that doesnt justify the demoliton of SOME PARTS of Babri
Masjid. I agree. BUT WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU SECULARISTS WHEN
3.75 Lakh KASHMIRI HINDUS ARE THROWN out of Kashmir.It is one of the largest exodus in Human history. Why no body talks abt it.? 1000's of Hindu girls were raped in front of their mother and father, 3.75 lakhs had to leave all they have earned in a life time to the fundamentalist inspired by Pakistan. WHERE WERE YOU PEOPLE THEN'
No no part of the masjid should have been demolished. Then again the likes of you have killed Gandhi blaming him for the partition. I saw that article you posted about the ousting of Hindus, American chronicle it may be but its written by an Indian with far right leanings, anyway i can give you more articles by american press saying that Kashmir shud be with Pakistan, as i do not agree with that i refuse to post them. Just rightist propogande, he is a freelancer for one, give me something from some credible dailies ?
'
(3) Every year 200 crores is given to Haj Subsidy, Muslims are given reservation in job and education. Lakhs of Muslim girls are given MINORITY Reservation and Scholarships. Where the hell is ur secularism.
And you know what Indian Govt does. TELL LIE IN SUPREME COURT OF INDIA, that PILGRIMS TO SABARIMALA are given SUBSIDY.'
Hinduism do not have a substitute for mecca as in the religion does not revere a single site as paramount. Haj subsidy is given because its located outside the country and lakhs of people will not be able to reach there. The Muslims and other backward classes are not represented well in higher education sector and in high jobs, it is the vision in the constitution to bring about parity between all the sects. That is why such scholarships are given. And no matter what you do or protest (which you can) it will be done. The Supreme court acknowledged this and said merit is not everything in its latest judgment.
'WHEN THE SO-CALLED COmmunist, Secular forces throw out TASLIMA from BENGAL and give award to Hussain in Kerala.
(4) SABARIMALA gives the stateof Kerala10,000 crores in 2 months time. The temple doesnt even have a website. WHY, atheists and communists rule. Churches are ruled by Christians, Mosques by Muslims...Why are temples ruled by the SECULAR GOVT??'
Because of the incapability of the hindus in general. Let me tell you this, the Christians and muslims have organizations which take care of their churches and mosques. In the hindu organizations which do that, its done in a terrible away albiet there are a few examples. The Davaswom boards of Kerala are working very well.
NOW you are giving wrong reasons.
If the Holy Mecca is outside the country, DOES A SECULAR GOVERNMENT take money from public fund and give it to Haj. Jerusalem is also outside, why cant Indian Govt give crores of rupees for that.
A why does a Secular Govt fund a Religious pilgrimage?
IF MUSLIM community is backward, SHOULD I LEAVE MY SEAT FOR RESERVATION.
OUR CONSTITUTION CLEARLY SAYS NO DISCRIMINATION IN BASES OF RELIGION. Why reservation to a particular religion.
( I DONT HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH ISLAM. I PRAY TO a Muslim Babar Swamy, before going to Sabarimala. I only have a problem with Religious Vote-bank politics )
There are millions of Hindus who are starving. There are lakhs of Nairs, Brahmins, Christians in Kerala who doesnt have money for education, food, health. Why are they not children of India.
When did SUPREME COURT START SEEING INDIANS as constituting of different COMMUNITIES.
HOW CAN POVERTY HAVE CASTE AND RELIGION, Dear Secular Brother. Does Hunger have Religion? Does education have religious barriers?
Why reservation for jobs for Muslims. arent there rich muslims, well educated, powerful. Arent there poor hindus?
Reservation can be for poor. Poor of any religion, any caste, any region. We should have economic reservation.
Do you know the report on Suicides in Kerala by I.G. Siby Mathew. ( a Christian)
In Kerala
---------
Hindus - 55% popultn. - Suicide 92%
Christns-17% populatn - Suicde 6.8%
Muslims- 26% populatn - Suicde 1.2%
Land Holdings 55% Muslims
Schools, Colleges 60% Christians
NRI money 72% non-hindus
Still they say 'Muslims' should be given reservations. Poor muslims and poor hindus can be given reservation. Why 'Reserve' a religion?
(REMEMBER I RESPECT ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY, HINDU, BUDDHA, COMMUNISM all...But Not religious vote banks. )
BECAUSE VOTE BANKS ARE THERE. And politics is all about Vote banks.
My dear, people like you, pseudo intellectuals, pseudo liberals, and Killing Gandhiji. Still 60 year old propagandas. Leave it.
You check internet for Kashmiri Pundits plight. 3.75 lakh Kashmiris. Are they non-humans, even Omar Abdullah said it was wrong for them to remain silent, when lakhs of hindus were forced out of their own land.
See what happend in Amarnath issue. My nation, my culture, my temple, and should I wait for Pakistan's permission for arranging additional facilites. Why no intellectual secular even told a word about that?
AND YOU might be a person who only reads, Deshabhimani or English Deshabhimani- The Hindu.........to say that Devasom Boards are working well. I will personally convey your comments to the Atheist Communist Devasom Board president. Let him be happy that atleast one soul in the world beleives Devasom Boards are working well. Amen...
And forgot to add, You were lavishly quoting SUPREME COURT.
SUPREME COURT TOLD TWICE TO HANG AFZAL, WHO ATTACKED OUR PARLIAMENT.
WHY U SECULARS, INTELLECTUALS SILENT ON HANGING AFZAL?
http://www.hindu.com/2007/01/17/stories/2007011714031400.htm
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/dec-13-martyrs-families-return-medals-in-protest/18535/
War Widows returning Ashok Chakra and other medals because Afzal is not hanged.
Dear Brother.... It is not because of intellectuals and pseudo seculars my nation lives. It lives because there are men who are happy to give their life for her, we sleep because there are patriots who remains awake for us,
My motherland exists not on ur brains, but on our hearts.
Being intellectual is great, but being Indian is greater. Vandee Mataram
dear jumbo,
'You must ask that question to Mr. Hussein not me. Whatever he drew he was well with in his freedom of expression to do it'
well within the freedom of expression.does that mean freedom to hurt people?for the sake of fulfillment of religious desires or for earning publicity and awards,if anyone misuses this freedom,how can anyone agree with it?
'Have u read my comments on taslima in the previous posts pegasus ? I defend taslima and others like her as well, the likes of salman rushdi etc. I am a secularist, this country may be a hindu majority but never will it be run the way the radicals want to run it.'
your comments on taslima?A lady brutally driven out of her motherland and forced out of our 'well-proclaimed' communist culcutta.they should be called communalist,and not communist as they are kissing the feet of the pakistan loyals.iam not a radical..most of my friends belong to other religions.but i too need,what u call freedom of expression.when i say it,suddenly i become a hindu fascist/radical.
'Sorta double standardish is it not ? Why then restrict temple entry to non-hindus, why not promote the religion like the christians do ? And most of all why is most of north india following the caste system and atrocities against the Dalits ? The reason is that you want to selectively forget the past and selectively retain it to meet your ends. In this world its impossible to not hurt feelings of one community or other, all i say is that the ones who are supposedly hurt have the choice not to watch it.'
i hope u r not a hindu.otherwise u wouldnt have asked that question.we dont believe in spreading our religion because we believe anyone can reach god through theirown religion.we never say 'only ours is true and the rest all false'.we dont give money,we dont provide reservations and we dont recruit militants for a religious cause to establish..the hindu republic of india.thats why we dont have a hindu country in the world.who are hurting the dalits in kerala..can u point out one incident?in north india,there are thousands of tribes where education is a forgotten dream after 60 years of independece.who is responsible?none other than the indian national congress which failed to establish the feeling of bieng ruled.they are adding communities day by day to the OBC list for vote banks.why if people like chandrasekhar[nobel winner] choose to be an american?its better to open your eyes and see nothing than to close your eyes and neglect defaming of your culture.
'This is world heritage week, And in a program I attended yesterday, organized by the ASI and the State archaeology dept of kerala, Our minister for education pointed out that we should be ashamed of ourselves for destroying a monument as wonderful as the Baburi Masjid, which was protected under the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Sites and Remains Act of 1958, by some nut case radical hindus. It was also reassuring that our courts and constitution will never allow anyone to build over that site. So Mr. Pegasus, We will never allow you to destroy the secularist nature of this country or its minorities.'
babri masjid--a national monument?even hardcore islamic radicals wont say it.nobody worshipped there and when suddenly it was demolished ,it became a hindu atrocity.when some militants from jamia university were shot down by the police and lashkar recruits from kerala were killed in kashmir,it becomes a hindu plot to defame a community nad militants suddenly become 'innocent victims'.when purohit and sadhvi were arrested,they become instruments of hindu terror and army becomes saffron outfit!when the supreme court itself commented on polygamy in islam,that becomes a hindu conspiracy and polygamy a private religious matter!when sister Abhaya culprits are arrested that becomes a CBI conspiracy to defame the church...THESE ARE CALLED DOUBLE STANDARDS!
Sabarimala pilgrimage cannot be given financial aid.why?according to TDB,2 crore pilgrims annually visit sabarimala and the revenue is rs.72 crore,growing 10% every year.the govt is helping ayyapas by increasing the bus fare by 10-20% special fare for sabarimala.what a double standard?why cant it be proclaimed a hindu pilgrim centre when the hajj pilgrims from all around the world only comes to 21 lakhs everyyear?these are the true double standards man.....
Rahul,
'If the Holy Mecca is outside the country, DOES A SECULAR GOVERNMENT take money from public fund and give it to Haj. Jerusalem is also outside, why cant Indian Govt give crores of rupees for that.
A why does a Secular Govt fund a Religious pilgrimage?'
Jeruselem is not a place of pilgrimage for christians in the effect that Mecca is for muslims. The same secular government spends a lot of money for the restoration and working of temples all around the country. Provides amenities to Hindus going to sabarimala and other temples, now including helicopter service. So its pretty even handed.
'IF MUSLIM community is backward, SHOULD I LEAVE MY SEAT FOR RESERVATION.
OUR CONSTITUTION CLEARLY SAYS NO DISCRIMINATION IN BASES OF RELIGION. Why reservation to a particular religion. '
Yes the constitution does say that. But here the muslim community is treated as a community not as a religion. In kerala the number of seats in universities and colleges were increased by 10% and 7.5% to accomodate the reservation for OBC's which include Muslims Ezhavas etc. So they are compensating the people in general merit while giving reservation seats to Muslims and other backward classes which is entirely acceptable. And one more thing you losing your seat depends on you and not reservation, as in if you are really good then you wont be in the fringe category of general merit students who are a bit affected by reservation.
'( I DONT HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH ISLAM. I PRAY TO a Muslim Babar Swamy, before going to Sabarimala. I only have a problem with Religious Vote-bank politics )'
Vavar and Ayappa is a myth so to speak, currently 2 students from Uni of calicut and one student from Uni of kerala are doing research as to find the truth abt Vavar. Vavar is like a locally revered person adopted into the ayappa legend to increase popularity.
'There are millions of Hindus who are starving. There are lakhs of Nairs, Brahmins, Christians in Kerala who doesnt have money for education, food, health. Why are they not children of India.
When did SUPREME COURT START SEEING INDIANS as constituting of different COMMUNITIES. '
Here the problem lies in the way the country is formed. It is still highly central in nature. We need India to be a true federal republic to address these concerns. Because in states like Kerala the poor are more evenly distributed throughout the religions and castes, but in most of India it is not the case, in many states the lower castes and minority religions are misrepresented and impoverished. The ideal thing would to keep the matter of reservation entirely to the state list. But that would require major changes in constiution and laws, and should address issues like migration.
'HOW CAN POVERTY HAVE CASTE AND RELIGION, Dear Secular Brother. Does Hunger have Religion? Does education have religious barriers?'
Like I said may be not from where you and I are from, but in many places it does have a caste if not a religion. You can see the BJP and other organizations protesting against the conversion of lower caste hindus to christianity by giving them food and stuff. I think the protest should be towards the higher caste hindus in these areas, who deny equality and practice principles of untouchability and unapprochability.
'Why reservation for jobs for Muslims. arent there rich muslims, well educated, powerful. Arent there poor hindus?'
Economic status based reservation in our country is next to impossible to implement. Even the BJP could not implement this or a Unified Civil code. So its better to benifit atleast some poor if not all.
'In Kerala
---------
Hindus - 55% popultn. - Suicide 92%
Christns-17% populatn - Suicde 6.8%
Muslims- 26% populatn - Suicde 1.2%
Land Holdings 55% Muslims
Schools, Colleges 60% Christians
NRI money 72% non-hindus
Still they say 'Muslims' should be given reservations. Poor muslims and poor hindus can be given reservation. Why 'Reserve' a religion?'
Actually this is misleading, there are other factors that are influencing thse figures. For examples most of the people affected by the farming crisis are Hindus because they were the traditional agriculturalists. And a high percent of these suicides happend in these areas. There is a religious aspect to this as well. Hinduism is perhaps the religion which gives the most freedom to a person, Christianity and Islam have more do's and don'ts and are followed more strictly by the followers. Suicide is a cardinal sin in both these religions and thats another reason.
As for the land holdings. Yes muslims and christians comprise of the Enterprise and rich agriculturalist core here. But this is only a minority part of their population especially if you look at the muslims who are well off. you see a minority within these minorities are owning most of the land, not all of them.
Like I said income based reservation is the best way. Its hard to implement and we will not see it in our life time. As it requires a 3/2 majority in the parliament and majority of states have to agree as well.
'(REMEMBER I RESPECT ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY, HINDU, BUDDHA, COMMUNISM all...But Not religious vote banks. )
BECAUSE VOTE BANKS ARE THERE. And politics is all about Vote banks.
My dear, people like you, pseudo intellectuals, pseudo liberals, and Killing Gandhiji. Still 60 year old propagandas. Leave it. '
Actually the reason for the existence of religious vote banks is the prevalence of extremism amongst the majority as in, Many Hindus will never vote for the BJP even if their policies (which i think many) are better than the UPA. It is because we fear for the secular nature of this country will be undermined. This secularist Hindu vote is almost assured for secular parties, so with the Hindu votes almost divided in half, may be slightly in favour of the BJP, this gives the minority the swing vote status, as in they can vary the results of an election. So therefore to assure their support we see vote bank politics. I say this give us an alternative moderate party to the INC in the national level many of us will vote for them. I say this because many of us admired Mr. Vajpeye and if it wasn't for the Gujarat riots NDA would have been in power even now.
'You check internet for Kashmiri Pundits plight. 3.75 lakh Kashmiris. Are they non-humans, even Omar Abdullah said it was wrong for them to remain silent, when lakhs of hindus were forced out of their own land.
See what happend in Amarnath issue. My nation, my culture, my temple, and should I wait for Pakistan's permission for arranging additional facilites. Why no intellectual secular even told a word about that?'
The central government have shown lack of spine in many such issues. I do not think its related to any religion, it is related to lack of strong leadership. Let me tell u the issues.
1. The Kashmir Issue. The government did not try to put down the protests and tried to appear peaceful and nice to the Kashmiris and international community. while undermining secularism.
2. The Singur issue. Instead of taking strong measures against both Mamta and the communist youth they did nothing, for fear of the lefts pullout from the coalition. It would have been much better if Mr. Singh put his govt on the line for this issue rather than for the nuke deal.
3. The violence against Christians in Orrissa. Severe lack of spine shown there with regards to the coming elections. The Home ministry is dysfunctional at the moment.
You can see that all this is the violence of a majority towards minority of the sate be it Hindu Christian or farmer, and our government has followed the policy of secular inaction.
Rahul Easwar said...
'AND YOU might be a person who only reads, Deshabhimani or English Deshabhimani- The Hindu.........to say that Devasom Boards are working well. I will personally convey your comments to the Atheist Communist Devasom Board president. Let him be happy that atleast one soul in the world beleives Devasom Boards are working well. Amen...'
I read the Hindu, ie, and Mathrubhumi. I do not read Desabhimani, and the Hindu is very secular but for the editor N.Ram who can only see red. Devaswom board revenues are on the rice, no aravana fiascos. Actually Mr. Guptan is not an aethist. Do not brand him one because he is the son in law of E.M.S. Mr. Sudhakaran is the one without ideas.
'And forgot to add, You were lavishly quoting SUPREME COURT.
SUPREME COURT TOLD TWICE TO HANG AFZAL, WHO ATTACKED OUR PARLIAMENT.
WHY U SECULARS, INTELLECTUALS SILENT ON HANGING AFZAL?
http://www.hindu.com/2007/01/17/stories/2007011714031400.htm
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/dec-13-martyrs-families-return-medals-in-protest/18535/'
The mercy petitons and things are ongoing. I am personally against death penalty and is for the implementation of longer prison terms like 30-40 years. Call for someone to be executed is barbaric. No matter what he has done, if we do that there is no difference between us and the Arabs who practice sharia law. I am not saying that Afzal should be set free, all am saying is that let law and appeal processes take its natural course.
Is it not double standards, that while people here are calling for speedy execution of Afzal, our government is working hard to free people sentenced to death in pakistan under the law of that nation ?
'Dear Brother.... It is not because of intellectuals and pseudo seculars my nation lives. It lives because there are men who are happy to give their life for her, we sleep because there are patriots who remains awake for us,'
Do you know in most wars this world has fought, volunteers have sacrificed more? Do you think in an all out big war only our current soldiers will be involved ? People will volunteer to be in the armed forces at a time of need, it has happend before the world over and it will happen again. And one more thing, the soldiers know their duties and risks, Indian army does not conscript people into the forces, people join the army because they want to and they are aware of the risks. I have utmost respect to the soldiers who fight for us. But i will never support an offensive war that's all.
'Being intellectual is great, but being Indian is greater. '
Being Indian is good but every man has to be human first and consider everyone else, whichever race religion or nationality ones equal.
Pegasus,
'well within the freedom of expression.does that mean freedom to hurt people?for the sake of fulfillment of religious desires or for earning publicity and awards,if anyone misuses this freedom,how can anyone agree with it?'
Well to me and many like me he has only exercised his freedom. Many cases are pending on this in our courts in many he has been found not guilty. So i am afraid you can only protest and feel aggravated and that his paintings are here to stay.
'A lady brutally driven out of her motherland and forced out of our 'well-proclaimed' communist culcutta.they should be called communalist,and not communist as they are kissing the feet of the pakistan loyals.iam not a radical..most of my friends belong to other religions.but i too need,what u call freedom of expression.when i say it,suddenly i become a hindu fascist/radical.'
You still haven't read my posts regarding taslima. I have always defended her. I am not a communist there fore the cowardly act of West Bengal government and followed up by Indian govt is condemnable. I also believe had the BJP been in power she would have been given asylum.
'i hope u r not a hindu.otherwise u wouldnt have asked that question.we dont believe in spreading our religion because we believe anyone can reach god through theirown religion.we never say 'only ours is true and the rest all false'.we dont give money,we dont provide reservations and we dont recruit militants for a religious cause to establish..the hindu republic of india.thats why we dont have a hindu country in the world.who are hurting the dalits in kerala..can u point out one incident?in north india,there are thousands of tribes where education is a forgotten dream after 60 years of independece.who is responsible?none other than the indian national congress which failed to establish the feeling of bieng ruled.they are adding communities day by day to the OBC list for vote banks.why if people like chandrasekhar[nobel winner] choose to be an american?its better to open your eyes and see nothing than to close your eyes and neglect defaming of your culture.'
By spreading the religion i do not mean conversion of other people into hinduism. All i mean is making others understand it. You see it had a great following since Vivekananda, and then during 60s and 70s when everyone was interested in the religion Yoga, and stuff. During this time the west was much more liberal than it is today, and the 90s and 2000s we see the re emergence of hardcore christianity and islam and hinduism. I was only suggesting to make the religion popular around the world as it was before. Actually there is no hindu republic of India becuase there is a sizable minority, in most islamic republics, minorities are very few numbering in the thousands. One cannot establish a one religion republic with high number of minorities. I was talking about Dalits in North India not kerala. So are you saying these people are discriminated against because of the lack of education. I would say India has done remarkably well since the independence under congress leadership. There are pit falls, but when you look at countries who have gained independence at a similar time period, we can see that we are much better off. The BJP had its chance and did rather well on economic and internation front, but it failed miserably with its social commitments, hence the defeat in 2004. The issue regarding OBC list i already answered this to rahul dont want to repeat here again.
'babri masjid--a national monument?even hardcore islamic radicals wont say it.nobody worshipped there and when suddenly it was demolished ,it became a hindu atrocity.when some militants from jamia university were shot down by the police and lashkar recruits from kerala were killed in kashmir,it becomes a hindu plot to defame a community nad militants suddenly become 'innocent victims'.when purohit and sadhvi were arrested,they become instruments of hindu terror and army becomes saffron outfit!when the supreme court itself commented on polygamy in islam,that becomes a hindu conspiracy and polygamy a private religious matter!when sister Abhaya culprits are arrested that becomes a CBI conspiracy to defame the church...THESE ARE CALLED DOUBLE STANDARDS!'
It need not be a religious place or worship. The Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Remains ACT of 1958 states that any monument or building over 100 years old and recognized by the central government as of national importance is protected. And the Babri Masjid ticks all this criteria s. It was a hindu atrocitiy becuase it was done in broad day light and horrified the nation. It was done by hindu organizations which remain not banned because of lack of political will. No one in kerala, not even the muslim league believes that there was any plot to defame a community when militants from kerala were killed. We are united against terrorists and we have asked the central govt to ban organizations like the NDF.
Sadhvi and Purohit are under trial, many in our country forget that like America and Britian India also has a policy of Innocent till found guilty. Whats happening with that case is that the secular media is trying to showcase it as an act of hindu terrorism while the media with right leanings are saying that they are innocent. I don't think either media should give their verdict on a pending investigation till proven guilty in a court of law. This happens here because our libel laws are inadequate. I am all for a unified civil code so either monogamy for all or polygamy for all. Most mainstream media reported it as a final triumph of justice when the arrests were made on the abhaya case. Some christian media were bringing up conspiracy stuff, mainly because these were high ranking officals of the church. It is as shameful as Mr. Rajnath Singh defending Sadhvi and Purohit while they are standing trial.
'Sabarimala pilgrimage cannot be given financial aid.why?according to TDB,2 crore pilgrims annually visit sabarimala and the revenue is rs.72 crore,growing 10% every year.the govt is helping ayyapas by increasing the bus fare by 10-20% special fare for sabarimala.what a double standard?why cant it be proclaimed a hindu pilgrim centre when the hajj pilgrims from all around the world only comes to 21 lakhs everyyear?these are the true double standards man.....'
The govt is giving all amenities to the sabarimala pilgrims including helicopter service. There is crackdown of 3rd parties to ensure lack of corruption. Let me also say this. The govt do not use the money from Sabarimala for other purposes, the money from the devaswom boards are used for the functioning of the boards renovation of temples, construction of rest houses etc.
DONT TALK RUBBISH
J U M B O
My foot, helicopter for Sabarimala. Who the hell is paying. What facilities are given free
I get angry when some one raises this stupid argument.
Sabarimala gives money to all these. Not the stupid govt. Do you know Sabarimala pays 2 crore rupees in 2 months at the highest unit charge in KSEB. Police is given 30 lakhs. Water is given 5 crores.
IF YOU DONT KNOW, dont cross ur limits on facts.
Sabarimala doesnt even have a website for information to devotees outside Kerala & India.
AND DONT TALK RUBBISH ABOUT AYYAPPA and BABAR. Ayyappa is 1000 years old, to be precise Kolla Varsham 280. AD 1050-1080. We have written records of Babar and Ayyappan. If you dont know, that doesnt mean it is not there.
And how come 2000 year old, virgin born Jesus is history and 1000 year old Ayyappa is mythology.
AND about trip to HOLY MECCA
DONT FOOL AROUND.
It is a clear constitutional violation of giving 100's of crores for a 'religious' pilgrimahe. You pseudo-secular, many eminent Muslim scholars also have raised objection to Haj Subsidy, but you pseduos can never accept.
YOU SAID "Yes the constitution does say that. But here the muslim community is treated as a community not as a religion."
Bullshit, what nonsense, what difference does it make by either caling a religion or community. ? DOnt argue for the sake of arguing.
The reality is that Muslim organisations are a vote bank. Political parties are playing for that vote-bank. Why cant you accpet that fact?
And you again cleverly avoided the topic of AFZAL. Why is he not hanged. Appeasement. It is insulting to Islamic community's patriots.
Dont go for this "International Humanish nonsense". You are inclined towards left. But remember, Stalin has killed more people than Hitler. Stalin was a 'human' first, communist, leftist. Stalin and Mao had killed more people than Hitler.
I am an Indian first, then only anything second. My first loyalty is to nation, my motherland.
you said "
Do you know in most wars this world has fought, volunteers have sacrificed more?"
Please dont bluff. 100 time more Soldiers have fought,died and sacrificed more. Where do you get such silly ideas,'volunteers have sacrificed more'.
You are a good intellectual, listen to this suggestion, read abt "falsifiability" by Sir Karl Popper. Your leftist base only appears right, but infact it is wrong and 'left'. Your paradigm is flawed. do read about falsifiability.
AND....I am an Indian first, then only anything second. My first loyalty is to nation, my motherland. Vandee Mataram
'
My foot, helicopter for Sabarimala. Who the hell is paying. What facilities are given free
I get angry when some one raises this stupid argument.'
No one is paying, its Air Force helicopters, and Mr Antony had a good thing in it.
'Sabarimala gives money to all these. Not the stupid govt. Do you know Sabarimala pays 2 crore rupees in 2 months at the highest unit charge in KSEB. Police is given 30 lakhs. Water is given 5 crores.'
I am just stating that government is giving all the necessary amenities.
'
IF YOU DONT KNOW, dont cross ur limits on facts.
Sabarimala doesnt even have a website for information to devotees outside Kerala & India. '
Probably true. But kerala temples unlike in other states dont usually carry a website.
'AND DONT TALK RUBBISH ABOUT AYYAPPA and BABAR. Ayyappa is 1000 years old, to be precise Kolla Varsham 280. AD 1050-1080. We have written records of Babar and Ayyappan. If you dont know, that doesnt mean it is not there.
And how come 2000 year old, virgin born Jesus is history and 1000 year old Ayyappa is mythology.'
You are speaking mythology am speaking facts. There are many historical accounts that Sabarimala was a Buddhist shrine read books by experts on kerala history. But i am not even debating Ayappa here. Babur was a local chieftian who was later added into the ayyappa folklore. Written records, no such things exist. You see in course of history important historical figures are given a divine status thats all.
Jesus is a historical figure, you may doubt his divinity though.
'DONT FOOL AROUND.
It is a clear constitutional violation of giving 100's of crores for a 'religious' pilgrimahe. You pseudo-secular, many eminent Muslim scholars also have raised objection to Haj Subsidy, but you pseduos can never accept.'
There is no point arguing with you over this matter either. Well I as a secularist challenge you that you or the likes of you cannot change this in a 100 years. Let me say this one more time, mecca is not accessible to the average muslim and the government rightfully gives subsidies.
'Bullshit, what nonsense, what difference does it make by either caling a religion or community. ? DOnt argue for the sake of arguing.
The reality is that Muslim organisations are a vote bank. Political parties are playing for that vote-bank. Why cant you accpet that fact?'
Actually many hindu communities are considerd as OBC as well. Tell me about Ezhavas in kerala they are relatively well off as well, yet they get reservation. Because islam do not have any castes the whole religion is treated as a community.
'And you again cleverly avoided the topic of AFZAL. Why is he not hanged. Appeasement. It is insulting to Islamic community's patriots.
Dont go for this "International Humanish nonsense". You are inclined towards left. But remember, Stalin has killed more people than Hitler. Stalin was a 'human' first, communist, leftist. Stalin and Mao had killed more people than Hitler.'
Many people on the death row are waiting for their date with the hangman. Afzal is just one of them, and the law will take its natural course.
I am not inclined towards right and that's all. The difference between Stalin and Hitler is that Hitler targeted a particular community and tried to execute every last member of it. Stalin and Mao did it as means of achieving power. All are condemnable. But on the brighter side Mao did unite his people under him and enable China to be a solid state. Stalins leadership was pivotal for victory over the nazis. All are mass murderers but Hitler was total evil.
'I am an Indian first, then only anything second. My first loyalty is to nation, my motherland. '
OK. But I am human first. A son and a brother second and an Indian third. It would always be so for me. I have no distinctions towards people based on religion, caste, nationality or anything.
'you said "
Do you know in most wars this world has fought, volunteers have sacrificed more?"
Please dont bluff. 100 time more Soldiers have fought,died and sacrificed more. Where do you get such silly ideas,'volunteers have sacrificed more'.'
Who is bluffing you or me. Volunteers mean people who volunteer to fight when a war starts. The conscripts and volunteers fought and died more during the First and Second world wars. In America the ration was 3:1. In Russia it was even more, and in Germany towards the end parts of hitler youth were put to fight. In vietnam American soldiers were drafted or volunteered while the NVA made every able bodied man and woman fight. India had fought 3 small wars, which it could sustain with its soldiers. But india too would need her reserve men in a big war like an all out war against china. All am saying is that when shit really hits the fan everyone joins in. And people who join the millitary know the risks.
'
You are a good intellectual, listen to this suggestion, read abt "falsifiability" by Sir Karl Popper. Your leftist base only appears right, but infact it is wrong and 'left'. Your paradigm is flawed. do read about falsifiability.'
I will see to it. Mean While why don't you read A hand book of Kerala by T Madhava Menon (editor) and Cultural history of kerala by rajan Gurukkal. Go to religions and Buddhism. It will confirm with proofs (archaeological historical and literary) that sabarimala was indeed a buddhist centre and read Keralolpati to see how the peaceful buddhists were driven out and massacred.
Jumbo,
Looks like you are suffering from a psychological disorder, ( counldn' recall the name.)
Rahul has answered all your queries extremely well, with logics, facts, proofs. But you just ignored all of them and extending a new debate by parts of his statements. Why you can’t read his full post ?
You just have a tendency of "Just to oppose" and "Not to agree on anything".
You have many..huh.. Too many contradictions in your stamtements itself.
Where is this debate is going ? What do you think, you will be able to hide fact related to "MF hussain and his nude paintings", by just diverting attention to some other direction?
painting > history > sex > incest’s > taslima > Dalai Lama > democracy/communism > Hiduism > reservations > ayodhya > religion change > castism > shabrimala > makka/huz sub >state gov's expenses > hitler > stalin > mao .......... so many other diverts !!
What do you think .. you are the only intellectual in this world ??
You are here just for doing bullshit. Just opposing opposing opposing .. each and everything.
Do you have anything new on this blog topic "MF Hussain and nude paintings" ????
Nothing .. you totally lost and hiding your face using above new words.
'
Looks like you are suffering from a psychological disorder, ( counldn' recall the name.)
Rahul has answered all your queries extremely well, with logics, facts, proofs. But you just ignored all of them and extending a new debate by parts of his statements. Why you can’t read his full post ?
You just have a tendency of "Just to oppose" and "Not to agree on anything".
You have many..huh.. Too many contradictions in your stamtements itself. '
Rahul answered my questions well. Ok may be in his own way, he is asking extra topic questions and am answering them, thus diverting from the topic that's all. I do not contradict myself. I agreed to a few things he said, I cannot agree to a hindutva agenda ever.
'Where is this debate is going ? What do you think, you will be able to hide fact related to "MF hussain and his nude paintings", by just diverting attention to some other direction?'
It is because others dont stick to the topic and ask me extra topic questions. I try to answer all questions they ask.
'painting > history > sex > incest’s > taslima > Dalai Lama > democracy/communism > Hiduism > reservations > ayodhya > religion change > castism > shabrimala > makka/huz sub >state gov's expenses > hitler > stalin > mao .......... so many other diverts !!'
Are u even reading the posts ? I havent started most of these diverts the last one was started by Rahul himself. Please don't be so myopic and read the posts.
'What do you think .. you are the only intellectual in this world ??
You are here just for doing bullshit. Just opposing opposing opposing .. each and everything. '
I never claimed to be anything. I will accept things which are right (like need for unified civil code etc) but i will oppose minority bashing and anti-secularism to the core.
'
Do you have anything new on this blog topic "MF Hussain and nude paintings" ????
Nothing .. you totally lost and hiding your face using above new words.'
If you want to suck up to others then just do so. But do not do it by saying blatant lies like this. Like I said am only answering other people's off topic queries. Hitler Stalin Mao thing was started by rahul for example.
Jumbo - "Hitler Stalin Mao thing was started by rahul for example."
What about other words I mentioned ? ( list is big .. I just quoted randomly ) ??
Jumbo - "Are u even reading the posts ? I havent started most of these diverts the last one was started by Rahul himself. Please don't be so myopic and read the posts."
Well ... LOL .. check recent conversation ... when rahul started answering ?
1) before that you only introduced so many diverts.
2) before that I pointed out about this.
'Devid said...
Jumbo - "Are u even reading the posts ? I havent started most of these diverts the last one was started by Rahul himself. Please don't be so myopic and read the posts."
Well ... LOL .. check recent conversation ... when rahul started answering ?
1) before that you only introduced so many diverts.
2) before that I pointed out about this.
'
I have done it a few times. But most times it was because people were asking me question outside the topic and i had to answer them. If you stay on the topic so will I.
JUMBO
DONT TALK RUBBISH WHEN U DONT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE
I know abt Sabarimala and how much it is paying. SO DONT TALK CRAP
YOU TOLD "I am just stating that government is giving all the necessary amenities."
HEIGHTS OF PSEUDO. Read the Supreme Court news I have sent you.
Even SUPREME COURT SAID "Arranging facilities after payment and subsidies are different"
Such liars you people are.
you said You are speaking mythology am speaking facts. There are many historical accounts that
Sabarimala was a Buddhist shrine read books by experts on kerala history.
But i am not even debating Ayappa here. Babur was a local chieftian who was later added
into the ayyappa folklore. Written records, no such things exist. You see in course of history
important historical figures are given a divine status thats all.
Jesus is a historical figure, you may doubt his divinity though. "
Dont talk crap. Do you know the name of ur grandfathers great grandfather. DOes that mean it
is mythology ???
NONSENSE. WHich book says. the propagandic Sreedhara Menon stuff. Rubbish litreature without any facts.
I have solid proof and We are presenting that before Supreme Court, you can see it in news channels in
some weeks time.
Jesus is history, Mohammed is history, Ram is mythology, Ayyappa is mythology. Even among divine people,
pseudos have preference.
you said "There is no point arguing with you over this matter either. Well I as a secularist challenge
you that you or the likes of you cannot change this in a 100 years. Let me say this one more time,
mecca is not accessible to the average
muslim and the government rightfully gives subsidies."
You innocent and naive brother, there are 51 Muslim nations in the world, not even one nation gives
Haj Subsidy. Are there not average muslims there.?
Do you know that in Holy Quran it is said, you should only go to Mecca by your own money.
I challenge you, you and liars, pseudos will never change. But as u said i will not say 100 years.
You wait and watch Let true Indian patriots come to power. We will carry out a cultural genocide.
Not by 'killing physically' but my cleansing the entire pseudo intellectual garbage from our motherland
JUMBO, I know that u will not be convinced,
BUT SABARIMALA being a BUDHHIST SHRINE is entriely a lie. A lie because Sabarimala accepted all castes and religions. Still a mosque is there inside Sabarimala.
Communists do not want the credit to go to Hindu religion, so they claim it is Buddhism.
Rajan Gurkal, Sreedhara Menon etc are all communists, They are lying. Buddhism was never a major force here. They say this because they want to say that all Brahmins and Hindus were bad and they captured power later. There is not any scientific proof for this. This is only propagandic stuff.
And how foolish of you to say 'other temples may not have websites'. Check net, many temples have websites for giving information. But Devasom is careless and have no initiative for temples.
Propaganda -i t is the same like 7th standard text book where 'it is picturised that the upper caste used to give food to lower caste in "echil" and mixed with cowdung. Every one has ruled India by dividing Hindus. They have exaggerated the differences between communities and always tried to establish one thing. There is no one called Hindu. there is only Brahmin / Dalit, Nair/Ezhava.
Britishers used divide and rule, then communists and pseudo seculars. It is only a matter of time. Hindus will unite, not against muslims or Christians, but for themselves. You wait and see, then Hindustan will see revolution is. It will not be against any community as such. But no anti-national will be allowed here.
Yadi Bharat mein Rahana Hoga Vande Mataram Kahena Hoga.
Jai Hind
Rahul,
I know you will never be convinced by what i say as well. Sabarimala was a Buddhist shrine. And the affidavit is filed in Supreme Court. Now lets see what you come up with as arguments. Cultural Genocide. Wake UP and SMELL THE BLOODY coffee. You will never come to power without the help of other parties who will never stand for it. In kerala the likes of you will never win a single state. You will sell your votes to communists or congress as always.
Krishna for instance is considerd by most historians as a historical figure but we do not have much proof, but its entirely feasible. Ram and Sita were first mentioned in Buddhist texts, Sita as Rams sister. Read the Jatakas please. There are tons of books out there written by Scholars of all religons even from north, non communists, who have studied the evolution of Hindu religion and other religons. Do you know that the name of the supreme God in Vedas? do you ? You are a Brahmin i suppose ? Please try too see in Yajur Veda who the supreme God is and how the prominant position held by Aditi Agni Prajapati (Brahma) Rudra (proto Siva) were transformed to latter gods.
You see Buddhism came just after Vedic religion. And they also incorporated many Hindu gods like Shakra (indra) and Brahma into their religion. The Jatakas were written centuries before Ramayana was compiles. Rama in a Jataka is Sitas sister.
Sadly in India most of us don't write down our anccestors names in big family trees like the British Aristrocracy does, hence i have to research to find out all the names a few generations ago.
You Extremists are all anti science, anti intellect, and anti research. When doing research i had special permission of Mr. Guptan sir to visit certain temples, but the local people had their reservations about camera and stuff, and it needed a call from him to give full access. The ASI said the truth about Ramar Setu in filing an affidavit, which the gutless government chose to withdraw.
Do you not see the pattern in this Mr Rahul. Most people who are learned in fields of Scientific discipline are your enemies. Even if we prove with solid archaeological evidence you are going to say its false. Remember what the board admitting Makara Vilakku as artifical ? I would love your solid proof about Ayappa on TV, the court will throw it out and God willing will grant entry into the temple for women.
'You wait and watch Let true Indian patriots come to power. We will carry out a cultural genocide.
Not by 'killing physically' but my cleansing the entire pseudo intellectual garbage from our motherland'
NEVER EVER. I know many extremists have infiltrated the Armed forces even. But no revolution of the kind will take place here. The moles like the Arrested Lt. Colonel will be tried for treason. India will never lose its secular nature. The great founders of our constitution knew that one day knuckle headed hindutva vadis will be a majority. Thats why they gave us such an iron clad constitution. You cannot amend Key provisions without a 2/3 majority and a similar majority in most of the constituent states of the Union. In fact you will never attain your goal.
Sabarimala accepts all casts and religions, but is discriminatory towards women. Hon. Supreme Court will prolly change that. Guruvayoor has no gender discrimination but discriminates against non Hindus. Allows Jainas and Buddhists, Jainas who do not believe in God.
Have you ever read Kerala History ? By any one ? Please ask farmers a few generations ago, some may be old now but they would know how it was like ? The old Zamindari system of Nambootiri and Nair supremacy was very much relevant. I can recall my grandfather saying how people were given food in the courtyard of our ancestral home, by digging a hole putting a banana leaf in that hole and pouring (rice soup) kanji in that. Are you saying all that was a lie ? Please open your eyes and ears ask people, who have seen this world more than you have.
Who is dividing Hindus ? You tell me that ? One of My friends a Journalist have recently been to Bihar, and has given me first hand report of how dalits are treated there by upper caste Hindus. It was published in his blog and some other publications. And read the reports on National Dailies of the atrocities they commit. And when these people try to change religion to escape from persecution, they are killed. Fine let them be Hindus go fight for their rights first, tell these people that you are all Hindus and not to discriminate. You know what all this United Hindu thing is a myth you use to get the votes.
Britishers used Divide and Rule in Bengal. But there was large Muslim Hindu Hatred from the time of the sultanate and during the times of Aurangazeb. The muslims enjoyed superiority under the Sultanate and many Mughal rulers. The British used Hindu Zamindars as their vassels, so there was great animosity. But all that is past now There is India and there is Pakistan. 'Akandha Bharat' is a myth and will never be a reality.
Any Anti Secular revolution against the country and its constitution will be put down with a strong hand using the Armed forces. Remember this is not Pakistan Indian Army is and will always be under Civilian control. So the whole hindutva revolution thing is a pipe dream.
Vande Mataram rejected as national anthem because it was a song praising Durga adopted as a song praising India the mother. This is what Tagore Wrote to Subhash Chandra Bose
'"The core of Vande Mataram is a hymn to goddess Durga: this is so plain that there can be no debate about it. Of course Bankimchandra does show Durga to be inseparably united with Bengal in the end, but no Mussulman [Muslim] can be expected patriotically to worship the ten-handed deity as 'Swadesh' [the nation]. This year many of the special [Durga] Puja numbers of our magazines have quoted verses from Vande Mataram - proof that the editors take the song to be a hymn to Durga. The novel Anandamath is a work of literature, and so the song is appropriate in it. But Parliament is a place of union for all religious groups, and there the song cannot be appropriate. When Bengali Mussalmans show signs of stubborn fanaticism, we regard these as intolerable. When we too copy them and make unreasonable demands, it will be self-defeating."'
Ok now is Tagore the same as Mr. Gurukkal and Mr. Menon.
hello jumbo,
you said the kerala govt has proved that sabarimala is a buddhist shrine.actually In its affidavit to the Supreme Court, the state government said, "Some scholars of ancient Kerala history say that the Sabarimala Sastha Prathishta was once a Buddhist shrine."
"gautama was born and brought up and died a hindu...there was not much in the metaphysics and principles of gautama which cannot be found in one or other of the orthodox systems,and a great deal of his morality could be matched from earlier or later hindu books"--Rhys davids
"to my mind ...buddhism has always seemed to be not a new religion,but a natural development of the indian mind in its various manifestations,religious,political,philosophical and social"--prof.M ax Mueller
"buddhism in its origin atleast is an offshoot of hinduism"--s.Radhakrishnan
Even if the communist historical new age 'gurus' try to prove that sabarimala has something to do with buddhism,how can you neglect these words?how come u say buddhism originated before hinduism?even dalai lama wont agree!
"Krishna for instance is considerd by most historians as a historical figure but we do not have much proof, but its entirely feasible. Ram and Sita were first mentioned in Buddhist texts, Sita as Rams sister. Read the Jatakas please. There are tons of books out there written by Scholars of all religons even from north, non communists, who have studied the evolution of Hindu religion and other religons. Do you know that the name of the supreme God in Vedas? do you ? You are a Brahmin i suppose ? Please try too see in Yajur Veda who the supreme God is and how the prominant position held by Aditi Agni Prajapati (Brahma) Rudra (proto Siva) were transformed to latter gods."
I may have a difference in opinion with Rahul regarding this thing,but to answer your folly-the jataka tales are just an anthology of folklore literature while the compilation of ramayan occured around 400 bc. In buddhist and jain folklore,Interestingly one can see the correlation between the class-caste aspirations of the narration-interpretation. In Buddhist Dasharath Jataka, Sita is projected both as sister and wife of Ram. As per this version Dashrath is King not of Ayodhya but of Varanasi. The marriage of sister and brother is part of the tradition of glorious Kshtriya clans who wanted to maintain their caste and clan purity. This Jataka tale shows Ram to be the follower of Buddha. Similarly Jain versions of Ramayana project Ram as the propagator of Jain values, especially as a follower of non-violence. What do both Buddhist and Jain versions have in common is that in these Ravan is not shown as a villain but a great spiritual soul dedicated to quest of knowledge, endowed with majestic commands over passions, a sage and a responsible ruler.
so,you are saying these are the true texts when,the buddhist and jains themselves are not satisfied with their reliability.YOU ARE INSULTING HINDUISM!this is the maximum. we hindus are not hurting any religion ,while you are using the advantage to demoralise and defame a Great Religion.According to me,LORD RAM was a great spiritual teacher and i consider him god.because we hindus believe teacher to be same as GOD.We believe that there is God in every living bieng.in good and bad,in hindu,christian or muslim and in jumbo or pegasus.consider other religions -islam thinks other living biengs in the world are made for man,to be owned or killed! you asked about the God in vedas-yes it says-
The vedic gods to whom Mantra section is devoted are nothing else but the worship of "manifested characteristics" of Nirakaar Brahm () and it is the first stage of devotion towards the Brahm.
'what brahm',right?to know it you must atleast know the fundamentals of spirituality.instead,suddenly you came to know about 'jatakas' and are trying to prove those folklore stories.
The old zamindari system prevailed in kerala.thats true,but only very few enjoyed those liberties.the majority of nambudiris and nairs lived in poverty in british ruled india.suddenly all the nairs and nambudiris became the culprits.i recall two of my friends .one was saying[a christian] that his father owns about 300 acres of land,and that too encroached from forest area in idukki and kottayam for which he has 'pattayam'.another one,a muslim was saying that his grand father who owned about hundreds of acres of land treated the tenants mercilessly.but suddenly everyone except the nairs and nambudiris become the victims.if you people have such a hatred towards nairs and nambudiris,come and kill us.we are ready!
and about Vande Mataram-
Did you know the following about our national anthem, I didn't.
To begin with,
India 's national anthem, Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka, was written by
Rabindranath Tagore in honour of King George V and the Queen of England
when they visited India in 1919. To honour their visit Pandit Motilal Nehru
had the five stanzas included, which are in praise of the King and Queen. (And
most of us think it is in the praise of our great motherland!!!
iam not quoting the entire text,but read this-The Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka implies that King George V is the lord of
the masses and Bharata Bhagya Vidhata is "the bestower of good fortune".
Following is a translation of the five stanzas that glorify the King:
First stanza: (Indian) People wake up remembering your good name and ask
for your blessings and they sing your glories. (Tava shubha naame jaage;
tava shubha aashish maage, gaaye tava jaya gaatha).....and so on.
about Tagore and vande mataram
Rabindranath Tagore himself sang Vande Mataram in 1896 at the Calcutta Congress Session held at Beadon Square.if that was tagore this is also tagore...
Vande Mataram! These are the magic words which will open the door of his iron safe, break through the walls of his strong room, and confound the hearts of those who are disloyal to its call to say Vande Mataram." (Rabindranath Tagore in Glorious Thoughts of Tagore, p.165)
you are selectively quoting sentences from articles to meet your needs when truth lies far behind.open your eyes man,and see that the philosophy of hinduism is not what you have learnt all these years.
NB- please treat your selective amnesia!
'"gautama was born and brought up and died a hindu...there was not much in the metaphysics and principles of gautama which cannot be found in one or other of the orthodox systems,and a great deal of his morality could be matched from earlier or later hindu books"--Rhys davids'
Rhys davids is famous for his fanatic following of the Aryan ethnic myth. He was criticised in Britian for it.
He and Max Muller were saying their opinions about Buddhism, there are others who have said otherwise. Buddhism formed out of the evils of the Vedic religion, read this
'"... Not only the ancient and medieval brahmin teachers did not understand Buddhism; modern scholars born into the Brahmanical tradition have not shown any better understanding. Shankara, Kumarila, Udayana, and Sayana- Madhava did not understand Buddhism. This is true also of Tagore, Gandhi, Coomaraswamy and Radhakrishnan. ..." [L. M. Joshi, "Aspects of Buddhism in Indian History", Buddhist Publication Society, Candy, 1973, (Wheel publ. 195/196), p.12] '
'"... The causes of the decline of Buddhism in India are attributed either to Tantrika practices or to Muslim invasion, or to both. Nobody even imagines that if Buddhism were only a "reformed" or "refined" version of "Hinduism" how it could be said to have declined and died away while "Hinduism" is still flourishing and is the faith of majority of Indians. Buddhism can be said to have declined only when there was evidence for its existence at a certain period in Indian history apart from the existence of "Hinduism". If Buddhism did not exist apart from Brahmanism or "Hinduism" it did not die at all. A non-existent tradition or way of life does not die. The theory of decline of Buddhism, from the standpoint of "traditional" history is a false theory. On the other hand, if the decline of Buddhism in India was a historical fact, the theory of its origin as a "reformed" Brahmanism is a false one and must be discarded." [L. M. Joshi, Ibid., p.14] '
The fact is that these great men you have quoted have not bothered to go in-depth about Buddhism, they viewed Buddhism from within the walls of their own religion.
The fact is that Buddhism is a separate discipline and it continues to flourish as one elsewhere. From China to Srilanka to Japan Korea and Indonesia.
read this as well.
http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/pre_buddhism_history.html
Acc to Dr. Peter Della Santina
http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dsantina/tree/
http://www.san.beck.org/
The first site also cites Encyclopaedia Brittanica as its source, check who wrote the article in Encyclopaedia :)
'Even if the communist historical new age 'gurus' try to prove that sabarimala has something to do with buddhism,how can you neglect these words?how come u say buddhism originated before hinduism?even dalai lama wont agree!'
It came after Vedic religion but before Hinduism proper as we see today. Hinduism is an evolution of the Vedic religion incorporating Buddhist doctrines. Roughly said the current form of Hinduism has its roots from the Gupta age, The Vedic gods, many of which were similar to persian and hellenic dietys lost their prominence or attributes to the Thrimurthis of Brahma Vishnu and Maheshwara.
'
I may have a difference in opinion with Rahul regarding this thing,but to answer your folly-the jataka tales are just an anthology of folklore literature while the compilation of ramayan occured around 400 bc. In buddhist and jain folklore,Interestingly one can see the correlation between the class-caste aspirations of the narration-interpretation. In Buddhist Dasharath Jataka, Sita is projected both as sister and wife of Ram. As per this version Dashrath is King not of Ayodhya but of Varanasi. The marriage of sister and brother is part of the tradition of glorious Kshtriya clans who wanted to maintain their caste and clan purity. This Jataka tale shows Ram to be the follower of Buddha. Similarly Jain versions of Ramayana project Ram as the propagator of Jain values, especially as a follower of non-violence. What do both Buddhist and Jain versions have in common is that in these Ravan is not shown as a villain but a great spiritual soul dedicated to quest of knowledge, endowed with majestic commands over passions, a sage and a responsible ruler.'
To say that Ramayana was compiled in 400 BC you must be joking. Valmikis time is roughly that. But Ramayana like Mahabharata later was not written by a single person, the core may have been written much earlier, but the additions were later added on. And Buddha lived during the Sixth Century BC which predates the Ramayana even if it was written in 400 BC. The truth is that Jatakas are not just folklore the earliest depiction of Jataka stories in sculpture can date further back than any Hindu deity on stone.
Ramayana is an epic story. It does not necessarily equate with the truth. Ravana may or may not have been a benevolent ruler. Actually even in Ramayana, Ravana's good qualities are there for everyone to see. Laxmana for instance was sent to the dying Ravana for receiving advice. And when Ravana did not speak to Laxmana who stood by his head this is what Ram said to Ravana .
'O Most Learned Ravana
O Mighty Warrior Ravana
O Mahan Tapasavi Ravana
I had sent my brother Laxmana to your kind presence for your parting advice to him. '
Anyway this was just to show that Ravana and Rama had great mutual respect to each other. And Ravana was a great ruler for his own people. So the Buddhist and Jaina texts have an alternate view of this that is all.
'According to me,LORD RAM was a great spiritual teacher and i consider him god.because we hindus believe teacher to be same as GOD.We believe that there is God in every living bieng.in good and bad,in hindu,christian or muslim and in jumbo or pegasus.consider other religions -islam thinks other living biengs in the world are made for man,to be owned or killed!'
Well yes that's your point of view. That is good enough for you and you are following it so are many, while many others are following Islam and Christianity where they believe in one supreme God. One is free to choose his religion as per his taste of opinion on these things.
'The vedic gods to whom Mantra section is devoted are nothing else but the worship of "manifested characteristics" of Nirakaar Brahm () and it is the first stage of devotion towards the Brahm.
'what brahm',right?to know it you must atleast know the fundamentals of spirituality.instead,suddenly you came to know about 'jatakas' and are trying to prove those folklore stories.'
This is actually a later day interpretation. You see the problem with Hindu texts is that they are contradictory to the core. Many people have added to it through the years, and different schools of thoughts have said things differently. I never asked you what Brahm is. I have studied a bit about Brahma and Atma and different schools of thought regarding their unity as one or not. This is Hindu philosophy or Spiritualism, my interest in religions are only educational. And oddly seminars offered by different Hindu missions often contradict themselves.
Jatakas are not folklore, If so one can say that all Hindu stories are folklores. Jatakas deal with life of Bodhisatvas or previous lives of Siddhartha before he became the Buddha.
'The old zamindari system prevailed in kerala.thats true,but only very few enjoyed those liberties.the majority of nambudiris and nairs lived in poverty in british ruled india.suddenly all the nairs and nambudiris became the culprits.i recall two of my friends .one was saying[a christian] that his father owns about 300 acres of land,and that too encroached from forest area in idukki and kottayam for which he has 'pattayam'.another one,a muslim was saying that his grand father who owned about hundreds of acres of land treated the tenants mercilessly.but suddenly everyone except the nairs and nambudiris become the victims.if you people have such a hatred towards nairs and nambudiris,come and kill us.we are ready!'
My first reaction to this is WTF. Actually you cannot be more wrong the majority of nambootiris lived in high status, so can be said abt the nairs, they were either rich landlords themselves or were working for other rich people as care takers and soldiers. There are a few exceptions of course there will be some but generally speaking it is not that way. Who is talking about killing Nambootiris and Nairs ? And who are we, you do not know which caste I am from even.
The Jan Gan Man Bashing is another Hindutva myth to make Vande Mataram the national song
'Tagore is said to have written the poem in honour of God. In a letter to Pulin Behari Sen, Tagore himself wrote:[12]
"A certain high official in His Majesty's service, who was also my friend, had requested that I write a song of felicitation towards the Emperor. The request simply amazed me. It caused a great stir in my heart. In response to that great mental turmoil, I pronounced the victory in Jana Gana Mana of that Bhagya Vidhata [ed. God of Destiny] of India who has from age after age held steadfast the reins of India's chariot through rise and fall, through the straight path and the curved. That Lord of Destiny, that Reader of the Collective Mind of India, that Perennial Guide, could never be George V, George VI, or any other George. Even my official friend understood this about the song. After all, even if his admiration for the crown was excessive, he was not lacking in simple common sense."'
Since many do not trust Wiki. Here is the citation.
http://homepages.udayton.edu/~chattemr/janaganamana.html.
It had no religious vestiges and didn't conceive India as a multi handed hindu deity and was acceptbale to the Muslims and other minorities of this country as well as most Hindus. Vande Mataram will never be our national anthem.
JUMBO,
HOW CAN YOU be so silly like claiming Sabarimala was a Buddhist SHrine. Were you there. What proof do u have other than reading propagandic crap. Whether you agree or not, Ganga will still flow, Ram will be Ram and Sabarimala a Hindu temple.
Dont fall for foolish stuff. There is a limit of being silly. DOnt cross that.
Many time I feel angry reading ur posts, But then I realise that you too are like me some years ago. I too was brainwashed by leftist ideology, my father being the first secretary of the youth wing of leftist student Union in Kerala Law Academy, Trivandrum.
Even now my brother is the head of Sales and Marketing in Chinta, the leftist magazine.
So I understand you too are a brainwashed intelligent person who will change your whole opinion in some years. ( DOnt beleive it, for you will not, it dawns as a realisation).
Then , the usual crap of leafs and Kanji...Dear Brother in 7th standard Books this year, Communist govt teaches that the upper castes gives food which has cowdung and remains of Brahmins.
See the link and just think about the agenda. after ur reply, I will give the funniest twist to the 7th standard text book.
http://www.sfikeralaejournal.org/txt_bk_20062008/chp_2_pg_5.html
Look at 7th standard book, what 5 lakhs of young, accepting children learn.
Rahul,
I am only talking about the history of Sabarimala. I have no qualms with it being a Hindu shrine, which it is now.
I am not brainwashed with anything. I do not subscribe to any magazines or ideology. There is a difference at being a communist and thinking independently. Fascism and Communism do not allow you to think differently.
I think the content in that book may be going a little overboard. But the next govt. will probably correct it. THe opposition is very poor whenever communists rule. They made a little fuzz about the text book, though for some other aspect of it but did not follow it up.
Mumbai Shootings and Bomb Blasts. I really pray that its not linked with any Hindu organizations. Because the ATS chief was the first among those who were killed.
Saying that its probably some Mujahudeen, Indian counter terror and intelligence services are a shame
http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/15/2008112720081127052429902ff3edb9b/NIGHT-OF-TERROR
See the first pic ? Is it not a saffron thing in his right hand ?
Wow~!Mr Jumbo...you opened my eyes...the red thread tied on to the terrorist's hand. So he is a Hindu. Well, when I think about it, I also have a red thread tied to my wrist. So this is new signature of a terrorist. I should better remove it then...
Nah not necessarily. I posted it earlier than they showed that on TV i saw the mumbai mirror site and then the only details out were was like ATS team killed, so there was a distinct possibility of that. So just posted here as a doubt, in my previous post i myself said the terrorists are probably Islamic.
Anyway how shambolic is Mr.Modi politicising the situation while the encounter was going on. He was criticised by everyone including the top brass army. And Now Mr. Kakodar became a hero, when he died fighting terrorists, before that for the BJP he was a villain for investigating them.
And the blame game on pakistan is the next thing, they should wait till more evidence emerge. Pakistan for instance is a mess the govt has no control over the ISI.
Yeah Mr Jumbo you are also in the bandwagon playing the blame game. One of the the terrorists had a saffron treadaround his wrist, they killed police heads and had their escape route back to Pakistan decided. All this is probably because my dear country has prople like you. They knew that at the smallest hint, pseudo secularists like you will relish and jump at the idea of Hindu terrorists behind the blast. People like you want to appear wise eventhough you believe in obsolete and worn out Ideas. Anyways howl at the moon as much as you please, the youth of India who are true to this country will react to what is happening. Our country has withstood atrocities from centuries simply because majority of its population believes that religion is for man and not vice versa.
Lekshmi,
I told you what they showed and i also maintained its probably not true. For all to see was the BJP's double standards after the blasts and the INC's lack of spine. Anyway i hope the congress have a better prime ministerial candidate next time around. And if the NDA wins the they win by a small simple majority.
Does he have a soul he is not using or is he a shamless pig....this shamless M F Husain .Such irreverence toward something/someone considered sacred or inviolable by Hindus will not be accepted. The law of our land says enough and this will be faced by the bastard painter.Let him for once paint his daughter, wife mother or any revered lady following his pet religion in nude. then we will silence our protest and accept this theory or version of "purity in nudeness".Meenu.
meenufindit@yahoo.com
shame on you jumbo, like the cheap "deshabimani" news paper in kerala, there to you are trying to score ideological points over indu commnity. Why cant you condemn global jehadi movemnt. We had a great muslim Abdul Kalam as one of our greatest presidents. But no anti-national will be allowed here, may it be muslim or marxist or any other section.
You wait and watch my motherland will never forgive you pseduo intellectuals. Starting from quit India movement where communists supported british, then in 1962 when china attacked India, they supported China. When Islamic terrorism is on the rise, dont give ideological justification to terorists just because you people dont like America.
The Indian state will take revenge, or else the people will.
Jai Hind
Mr jumbo
I am reiterating the views expressed by Rahul here. Among the statements put in your previous comment, one deserves special mention..."And the blame game on pakistan is the next thing" So are you saying that Pakistan should not be blamed. I understand your point when you say more evidence should emerge but as Indians, I think our first suspicion would go to our "peace loving"neighbours. The terrorist tied a red thread to his wrist to disguise himself as a fisherman. You seem to have been deceived by that and blamed your own countrymen fr that. I am sure that an apt response could be found in Major Unnikrishnan's fathers behaviour to our honoured CM. His only son laid down his life for this country and there are people like you who are reluctant to blame Pakistan, but are happy to put the blame on the so called hindu terrorists. I am not trying to be Jingistic here, I have lots of Pakistani classmates here, but when it comes to my motherland, I am an Indian first and anything later.
To add to the above, Mr Jumbo, I know...I understand that people like you cannot change. I know that mine is a perfect waste of time. Please be assured that our views and behaviour are seasoned and shaped after observing and reading facts and fiction. I know you will jump at this and call this hindu nationalism or something..I understand your feelings, you have to defend your stance at any cost. All the best!
I am branded a communist for differing from the hindutva ideology and radical nationalism. I am against both communalism and communism but if met with a hard choice i will always choose the latter.
The only ideology i believe in is libertarianism. I stand for free trade, free speech, freedom to criticize etc. Both radical nationalists and communists do not subscribe to most of this values.
When have i ever said i do not like our alliance with America. But Even Our new found ally America refused to give a genocidal leader like Narendra Modi a Visa.
Who is talking about Desabhimani or red news papers. Have u seen the news channels like Headlines Today, CNN IBM etc ? Or do you think the likes of Rajdeep Sardesai are communists ? They are the ones among with people of Mumbai who were outraged by Modi politicizing things even while the encounter was going on.
And what abt the farcical decision of the BJP and Siv Sena to hold a Maharashtra Bandh the next day, which was withdrawn because the people were in no mood for it. Where is Raj Thackerey and his Uncle when people of all sects united to save mumbai ?
'But no anti-national will be allowed here, may it be muslim or marxist or any other section.
'
YOU are the number one anti national here. The likes of you who will destroy our nation in the long term. Like the Nazis of Germany many will fall under your spell now, untill you lead our country to destruction. Guess what Mr. Rahul, I am not a communist but you can have no doubts about which party have grass roots support here.
Today is the District Committee meeting of DYFI here, they are causing terrible traffic problems, but if you come and see the place you will know that getting Kerala rid of its marxists is a pipe dream at best. I am thankful for them as they are a necessary evil, keeping in check communal forces.
Oh I beg you to disallow the marxists from Kerala ! No I Dare You.
DEAR JUMBO...
you said "YOU are the number one anti national here. The likes of you who will destroy our nation in the long term"
&
but if you come and see the place you will know that getting Kerala rid of its marxists is a pipe dream at best. I am thankful for them as they are a necessary evil, keeping in check communal forces.
WHO WANTS TO GET RID OF THEM.
My father was the 2nd secretary of the left youth wing in Kerala Law Academy and later its president. Even now 4 member from my family work in Communist party.
WHO WANTS TO GET RID OF THEM.
The change should only be in stance, not party as such.
in 1962, when china attacked CPIM supported China, now today Pinarayi sir told "our minds are with Major Unnikrishnan". we only want them to be nationalistic. We want them to be Communist party of India not china
If iam anti-national, then who is national? you? of all the people?
If communism was not communalistic why was Taslima pushed out of Bengal. Modi is denied Visa, so what is the big deal with me. Let him be denied Visa.
I have also told earlier that "Modi was playing communalism when he wanted Taslima in Gujarat just to irritate Muslims"
I have always told in interviews to Indiavision, Cnn-Ibn in great support to Buddhadeb Bhattacharya who did the right thing by sending her out. The problem only comes when Taslima is sent out by Bengal communism, Kerala communists invite Hussain to give award.
See beyond caste, religious, political barriers, my priority is India.
We all have different levels of Identity. On one level, We are all living beings, so we should take care of not only human but also animal and plant world. On another level, we are Human, we shoud have humanism and take care of all Humans in the world, On yet another level, We are belonging to a nation, we should take care of our motherland and not run away from the responsibilities of being a citizen of that nation.
I urge you to do that responsibility to your motherland. FOr our motherland needs youngsters in her service, for our very own existance is at threat, our very own survival is being targeted, our mother and motherland is at the danger of being destroyed by terrorism.
Along with our responsibilites for living beings, man kind, the responsibilities towards our nation need to be fulfilled, right?
I would like to see where you stand in the whole taslima issue. I was so ashamed when the government revoked her right to stay here. The government of Bengal were pragmatic but did not do the right thing. I believe for instance that an NDA government would not have revoked her Visa. But they would be doing it not because of their commitment towards freedom, but because of their agenda of majority politics. Let me tell you this I would vote for any party who will show political will to make such strong moves. The problem here is that you have three choices for central government which is like choosing the less fatal of three diseases.
1. A congress government is spineless and will severely risk out national security. For the same reason they will not take strong measures against community politics by the minority or majority. But them returning to power may change that and will show a continuity in foreign policy and a speedy completion of defense procurement. Like the MRCA deal for the Air Force. Which a change of government may affect.
2. The NDA will be tough on terrorism. They will show much more political spine. It depends on which NDA comes to the power, the sangh parivar centric NDA will be a threat to our integrity. Draconian laws like the non conversion law in Gujarat will further divide the nation on religion based politics. We can expect continued good relations with the United States. Defense Procurement may be given a speedy go ahead. There is real danger of problems like Orissa and Gujarat genocides happening again under an NDA govt. Economic policy of both NDA and UPA are almost the same.
3. A third front with left support, with Mayawati possibly as prime minister will be inherently unstable. It will adversely affect economic growth and defense procurement. We will see more reliance on Russia and distance from the US. Dialogues against a bullying China will be given a go ahead. Domestic social policies may improve however with a larger public funding and more programs like the NREGA. The government may be committed to secularism but the creaking coalition would mean that it would turn a blind eye on issues in states governed by the constituents.
I am keeping an open mind here, there are four months to go, and these are the three shitty options every Indian is faced with here. One has to sacrifice something if you take any option. For me it will depend on the leadership of the UPA and the election programme of the NDA.
Rahul terrorism cannot be fought like you fight a normal war. And a normal war waged against Pakistan may not even stop terrorism. The punitive steps taken against Pakistan and any possible military action will strengthen the hands of the extremists there. The best way for now is to play the waiting game while building a broad based strategic alliance with the United States, especially on matters of counter terrorism and intelligence sharing, from the reports it looks like the Americans are doing their bit giving our security services the intelligence, but we are failing to take action.
The greatest responsibility of a citizen towards her nation is to Vote. Secondly to criticize the policies which will be negative in the long term.
I can see the good side of you and may it prevail over your feelings against freedom. All great nations move forward because there is debate on the national policies. As a democracy we must model ourselves on the west, because that is where all the successful democracies of this world are based in. We should allow ourselves and our citizens the freedom to express their protests against policies of the government if it calls for it, be they be right or wrong.
Let me give you an example. Here in our country some one who calls for a referendum in Kashmir (which i personally do not stand for) is called anti national. While he is merely expressing another viewpoint. In other democracies around the world like in America and Britain the citizens are given greater freedom to criticize their government, there was political support for the independence of Northern Ireland in England, only the IRA was banned. Likewise we have to admire the level of anti war protests they allowed in the U.S during the Vietnam war. Here in a similar circumstance we may have banned any such protests, saying that its against the country.
Nationalism is good, but it should not clout our view of this world. That is all. I cited examples of other countries just to show where we stand, not diverting topic.
Hahaha right said comrade Jumbo... just saw the statement by our beloved communist chief minister "Sandeep nte veedallenkil avide patti thirinju nokkumo? " It cannot get lower than this...not my words, but the headlines from a prime news chanell. You are right, even if the earth splits and swallows all keralites, kerala would not get rid of the cursed communists!
Comrade Jumbo ? Get a grip of yourself please.
Sorry sir, I did not mean to insult you by calling you Comrade. I just meant friend....or do you feel that the word is an insult. There is some irony somewhere...isnt there? ANyways when I saw Our CM today, I was reminded of Napolean in Ánimal Farm'..A ....who does not understand responsibility. Again I do not have expectations to dawn any truths to you Mr Jumbo. I sould be minding my own business rather than undetaking impossible tasks like showing some sense to idiots who have been chanting what their supremos have thought them. Communism is no longer a revolutionist ideology. It is a tried, tested and failed ideology. I have read the comments of most of those who have countered you here and can confirm that I didnt see any fascist or dangerous ideas expressed anywhere. Mr jumbo, you are a cliche, I have heard the same views from SFI minions during my undergrad days. They had a bucket in their hand. What is your motive? I can forsee your counter arguments coming and can guess which road it would take. So i am bidding adieu. You are entitled to your view.
Sadly i agree with most things you said about communists now. But comparing me to them shows poor sense
I think N.F. should be shoot down before we shoots the Mumbai Terrorists.. He is very much poisonus than the direct killers.. He is selling our Bharat Matha.. The people like him are very much encouraging the outside terrorists.. coz; they sees Indians as useless.
Anand,
Yes shoot down the man, that too without trial and show the world how civilized and democratic we are. At least the others are only voicing their protests and asking for legal action, you just want to kill the man outright....bravo
You said "I would like to see where you stand in the whole taslima issue. I was so ashamed when the government revoked her right to stay here. The government of Bengal were pragmatic but did not do the right thing. "
My response, check http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=1TXDl0OrujI
There also I mentioned Taslima's case first, 2nd about Hussain. Modi played communalism there, by saying that he will welcome Taslima to irritate Muslims.
I have always maintained "An Indian Muslim is more important than a Bangladeshi Hindu for me in the context of India and Bangladesh"
As i told earlier, I dont believe in showing obscene symbols to a girl and claiming that it is freedom of expression. Think abt it, national sensibility and resposibility is higher than narrow liberty. Jai Hind
Ultimately the left-liberal paradigm will fall. not because it is either good or bad,but because it is basically unscientific, only 'philosophic', and the time has evolved making the ideology increasingly less relevant.
Marx said "The only thing without change is change"
Now it is said "even change has a change".
populists! jumbo, dont waste time! they are learning from you! they will only counter you with absurd, but they know how to make absurd in to popular stuffs!
vargeeya vaadi!
Mr Rahul,
Again you are taking up the extreme nationalist stand. Everything Liberal is not 'pseudo'. The basic difference between a liberal and a conservative is that the conservative can only see his point of view and do not care about the rest, while the liberal considers all the views.
Welcoming Taslima was one of the few good things Mr Modi has done throughout his political career.
I actually liked the response given to your opinion more. She correctly points out that you as always is taking and extreme stand and going overboard.
Thankfully the likes of you are a minority in our state and will never win an assembly seat in a hundred years.
Narrow liberty ? Liberty my friend is not narrow, its people like you who are trying to make it narrow....
Just because you hold a masters in philosophy don't mean that you can pass judgments like that. Marx did not invent liberalism, the libertarian ideas have their origins further back they were found by men who were sick and tired of religious fundamentalism.
And please tell me which ideology is relevant ? Is extreme narrow minded nationalism relevant ? The thing that has caused two great wars is it still relevant ? The time is nigh for co-operation against common challenges faced by humanity.
Now let me quote some one who sounds a lot like you...
'The keystone of the Fascist doctrine is its conception of the State, of its essence, its functions, and its aims. For Fascism the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative.' - Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini
Now anyone reading back on your idea of nationalism will know that it confers exactly to his.
Dear Poocha,
I know that. Whatever I or anyone say they will dismiss with the 'pseudo' title. But things like this should never go unopposed, and its never wrong to stand for what you believe in.
dear jumbo,
you mentioned-
"Yes shoot down the man, that too without trial and show the world how civilized and democratic we are. At least the others are only voicing their protests and asking for legal action, you just want to kill the man outright....bravo"
let justice triumph!
as in the case of mohammed afzal guru...!
as in the case of those party fighters of the red army who killed a school teacher mercilessly in front of the kids and were let off by the blind justice!
as the case of thousands of indian citizens killed in the name of an arabic term which i hate!
what more do u want? justice for Azam amir kasab too.....give him a gun and free him !like those thousands of rabid 'jihadi' dogs,let him finish his pogrom.
4ooo indians were killed in india this year in the name of jihad[higher than iraq].still you people keep praising the inept government and queen sonia.shame on you.democracy is the better idea,but when intelligent people stay out of the million dollar political buisiness and let dogs do all the barking as you saw in kerala,nothing better should be expected.
see what has divided india-
In a state were 90% of the people are said to be literate,we still vote on the basis of religion and caste.muslim league,kerala [christian] congress ,PDP,NDF, and what not?but only BJP becomes a danger as it represents the majority community.this is what we had been facing for 60 years now only because congress ruined this land.
mahatma knew it-
Gandhi was an anti statist in the sense that his vision of India meant India without an underlying government. His idea was that true self rule in a country means that every person rules himself and that there is no state which enforces laws upon the people. On occasions he described himself as a philosophical anarchist. A free India for him meant existence of thousands of self sufficient small communities (an idea possibly from Tolstoy) who rule themselves without hindering others. It did not mean merely transferring a British established administrative structure into Indian hands which he said was just making Hindustan into Englistan. He wanted to dissolve the Congress Party after independence and establish a system of direct democracy in India, having no faith in the British styled parliamentary system.
congress exists after gandhi so that sometime from now we can see a foriegner ruling over this greatest democracy!
Dear Pegasus,
I do not support any acts of violence or political murders. be it done by congress or communists or BJP. You call me a communist outright but I am their greatest critic, In communist majority areas they do not let other parties compete, it can be said in the case of colleges as well. In the case of Kerala, why is the University college in trivandrum dominated by communists who do not allow any other party to take root there, same can be said abt the Mahatma Gandhi college where the abvp do not allow other parties. Both are wrong college democracy is to teach the young men and women the values of our system, yet they are experiencing totalitarianism first hand.
of all the political murders that have occurred in Kerala, killing of that teacher in front of his students was the most horrible, and i am all for the perpetrators getting swift justice.
4000 Indians, I think your numbers are wrong, but yes I admit the security of this country is something to be desired off.
You vote on the basis of religion caste and everything don't mean I do. I voted for the Indian National Congress only because they give me a middle ground between the communists and the extremists. Like I said if BJP ever becomes moderate i will probably vote for them. I support many things in their agenda like the universal civil code. But i cannot vote for them as long as they represent the far right.
I do believe that we are better off with a Presidential system with more powers to the Lokh Sabha and Rajya Sabha. But whether Gandhi wanted to disperse congress or not, we would never know. As he was killed by a Hindu Extremist.
Actually i do not believe Sonia Gandhi is a foreigner. Unless you believe in extreme propaganda you should not believe it either. She is committed to the nation and is an able leader, I think we would have been better off with her as the Prime Minister than the spineless Singh, who could have been the finance minister. There is no law like in the USA preventing a foreign born Indian national from attaining the prime minister's post. Even the USA some republicans want to change that law to make Arnold stand for president. So expect that in the future.
JUMBO..Poocha..
It is useless to reply poocha for he is having no intellect only slogans.
(Winning as assembly state, Wait. True Patriots will win the whole India, only a matter of time, until Indians realise pseudos and thankfully hardly any one knows commies nationally)
Then HOW CLEVERLY YOU ESCAPED THE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS YOU DONT HAVE ANSWER.
1) I asked specifically, One guy shows a vulgar sign when a girl is passing by, Can we justify by saying it is freedom of expression?
(think as first person, not as "arante Pengal")
2) The Humanist Stalin killed more people than the Nationalist Hitler, does that mean Stalin is more evil than Hitler?
And then you fall for the extreme right anti-muslim agenda that Vavar is not Muslim and you fall for extreme left agenda "nations are narrow mindedness".
You are an ideological fanatic, having intolerance towards religion, nation and culture of land. Same like Commies who supported China when they attacked India.
Nations will always be there, what we need is national co-operation. Same with religions. Mathetarathwam alla Mathasouhardam aanu vendathu. Vandee Mataram
And sad you too fell for Modi, He was truly bringing out his comunal face in Taslima issue. Modi opposed Hussain and supported Taslima. It was not because of his love for freedom of expression. Nor was his desire to take up the cause of women in Islam. Modi wanted to irritate Muslims. Why is our youngsters standing upside down. What ever Right is done, they call it wrong. And What ever wrong is done they call it left. God save my nation.
Rahul,
I have replied to your questions regarding gesturing and Stalin in the posts before. Why do you ask it again and again ? My response will always be the same.
Nations are not narrow mindedness. Extreme nationalism is.
I do not confer to commies supporting China when they attacked India.
Communism in its general sense as envisaged by Marx, spans beyond borders, the first allegiance of a communist is towards the fellow working and farming class irrespective of the country. Marx asked workers of the world to unite if you remember not that of Germany or Russia. But that's the theoretical aspect, Maoism is far different from your Marxian communism and is very nationalistic to the core, and India was having socialist economic policies at the time, there is no justification for the support of Chinese.
Mathashouhardam is built into Mathetharatwam. Both do not mean that one citizen has to suffer because of the feelings of this religion or that religion are hurt.
I know Modi was not being a champion for freedom. But sometimes people do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reasons. So Modi was prepared to do the right thing for the wrong reason, that do not mean that the thing he was about to do was not right.
Yes God save our nation from people like you.
And winning India is a Wet Dream for all right wingers. I Diluted NDA is all you can expect at most, period.
Jumbo...
stop doing all the shit here... we are out of tissue paper..!
I m reading all the posts and you made this blog just a garbage box.
Your all related posts are answered very well, and now u r just misusing the space of debate.
If you want to just talk and talk and talk ...create your own blog .. its free..!
Poocha ! Stop doing all this nonsense ...If you have any argument or debate related to subject write here but dont vomit here .. ! talk somewhere else about your kitty party criticism.
Devid,
I am by and large only replying to posts made by Rahul and Pegasus. As I am alone in my corner at the moment I am forced to answer all the posts directed at me.
You cannot shut me up just like that Devid, of course this is owned by Rahul and if he chooses to do so he can ban me from making further posts and delete my posts.
I think that would be too un-democratic and cowardly for him to do so.
Meanwhile who asked you to moderate this ?
WITH DUE RESPECTS "POOCHA" is ignored and his vulgar, senseless comments delted
Then JUMBO..
God will save my motherland. From those traitors who supported CHina in 1962. From those Pakistani terrorists who threw 3.5 lakh Kashmiri Pandits. also from those Hindu extremists who raped the nun too.
AND YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY SPECIFIC ANSWER TO the EVIL STALIN. IN THE NAME OF MARXISM MORE PEOPLE ARE KILLED THAN JEHADI, RELIGIOUS AND RACISM. Party classes cant alter History. and dont be like those cheap party intellectuals who can justify anything for party even if it is wrong.
Stalin made treaty with Hitler, SO dont tell that stalin was interested to save the world. STALIN WAS A RUTHLESS TERRORIST POWER SEEKER who used MARXISM. In the same way there are religious extremists who misuse religion. I respect MN.Vijayan Sir. BUT DONT BE LIKE HIM WHO CAN EVEN JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF A TEACHER IN THE FRONT OF HIS STUDENTS.
STALIN WAS A BIGGER EVIL THAN HITLER.
Give me a specific answer on Stalin and dont be like MN VIJAYAN SIR who stoops so low to justify even the barbaric killing of a teacher in front of students.
Rahul,
I am delighted to see some form of moderation and non-bias from you at last, with regards to the nun issue at least.
Stalin was a great leader. But like you say i agree that he was not a nice person. He is responsible for the death of millions, but then again he did not wage war a against a particular race like Hitler did, so that makes him a normal criminal and murderer, but not on par with Hitler who was the embodiment of evil.
About Stalin making pacts with Hitler. Did Subhash Chandra Bose not make Pacts with Germany and Japan ? And yet because he is Indian we use end justifies the means clause in his regard.
Stalin was a notorious evil power seeker like you said who killed all in his way. Hitler on the other hand tried ethnic cleansing to eliminate a race from the face of the earth. Whatever you may say Hitler was more evil.
I have already expressed my views on killing of the teacher in front of his students. I am against capital punishment personally so I would like justice to take its normal course. I also believe we need a revamp of punishments, with capital punishment abolished and terms of life imprisonment increased, like to 40 - 80 years without parole.
poocha,
i dont know why you are peeping in and spreading messages of hatred and talking irrelevant like a schizophrenic?if you have such a hatred for rahul,why dont you go some place else?
If you cant talk like us,it may be because of the vacuum between your ears or because of your crap ideology.better go and have a psychiatrist consultation before you become a menace to the society.if you were born in pakistan,you may be the one who was send to india to intimidate us.people like you only know to spit venom filled communism and to dishonour our martyrs.
people like you live for the sake of spreading the message of a cult-cadre-political party which believes in victory through blood...that very human blood which has even soaked the flag of that party...men with heart full of hatred roaming the so called GODS OWN COUNTRY!
cats and dogs have better places to go.why hanging up here?
jumbo,
i cant understand your double standards regarding certain things.
Hinduism is the most tolerant religion worldwide.we have always welcomed all other semetic religions here,but always they all have done harm to hinduism.remember the old tale of the arab and the camel?
islam,on the other hand is day by day becoming organised and unsecular.they beleive in converting or killing all infidels/kafirs.they are not the least tolerant to those who tries to make them think a little...what else would have happened in chekannur moulavi case?majority of them believe that the book they worship [that they think has not changed a word sice its origin] and its interpretations by morbid mullas is the final word.how can you tell, they beleive in indian penal code?most of them think that the barbaric ways of punishment mentioned in some texts are to be introduced here.most of them want their men to marry four.most of them want their ladies to be clad in thier full-black burkhas and to stay out of the premises of an outsider.are these the reflections of their freedom of expression?
about taslima,salman rusdie and daud haider...were they hindus?when they couldnt even see some one starting a criticism of their well -protected religion,what would have happened if a hindu started it..just imagine!My sense is that we are now much more even handed in our approach to religious fundamentalism.
I sensed this first in the manner in which we regarded the Muslim political leadership's attempts to turn the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad into a domestic political issue in India.then nobody objected.nobody raised voice for the freedom of expression.
one of my friends,who is an orthodox muslim was saying...all these[mumbai attacks]happens because of AMERICA!he wasnt even bothered to mention pakistan hand in that issue...what a holy brotherhood...
you said that 4000 was a wrong number...will your congress government kindly provide the real number of victims involved in fundamentalist attacks this year?today is sixth of december..the same day everyyear we all live in a state of horror...hartals declared,security intensified and protests conducted.who remembers the days when hundreds are killed in the name of jihad?iam happy this year protests from within the country were weak.why? a sense of repentance or they lost belief in democratic ways of protest?
A nation where everyone else treat hindus as soft targets and even hindus are brainwashed with pseudo-secular ideologies and a self maintained sense of pagan worship,cannot progress this way for years.a change is going to occur.even the ruling front is going to feel the anger of a nation which was always been humiliated in the international arena in the name of idol-worship and their pagan ways by the very citizens themselves.Every other religion here tried to portray hinduism as divided,unscientific and full of myths.thus they could change those poor people by giving them money and changing their identities.but now the west has understood what the churches were hiding.more and more people come here to understand hinduism and we tell them-GODS are all ONE!no need for baptism or circumcision to be a hindu.you can be a hindu,if you understand the real meaning of unity.BUT whats the secular politicians doing out here?Days back,Every educated and thinking keralite hid their faces in shame when our honourable CM dishonoured the family of a martryr.An MLA went to the extend that "do you want to compensate families of the martyrs before they die!"in the centre stage,the congress is digging its own grave-by submitting to the neo-colonial american nuclear deals ,by waiting for an immasculated sardari to extradit perpetuators of jihad and by making every indian feel insecure even when they sleep.
ANYWAYS TO PREVENT A CHANGE,MAN?
Pegasus,
Hinduism is the most tolerant religion worldwide. I agree. But it is increasingly intolerant these days because people with an extreme agenda is polluting it.
The penal code is the same for every religion. The civil code is different and I am against it, it is one of the ideas of BJP i support. Like i told you if they were moderate I do not mind supporting the BJP or voting for them.
Last elections they lost mostly because of Gujarat and other fiascos, yet instead of putting up a secular face, they are going to their core voters upholding the radical hindutva agenda, while i believe if they put up a secularist front they could win this coming election easily.
Pegasus, I am committed to freedom and rights, I do not support minority or majority appeasement or vote bank politics.
I agree with you that many who do not blame Mr. Hussein will be up in arms if some one from the majority religion drew a caricature of the Prophet. I can rest assure you that I will not be one of them. For me the freedom of expression and other rights have to be supported regardless of religious chauvinism.
The basic problem you have is that you equate me to a communist. Which i am not. And for i am not one i do not play politics like they do, i would stand for cartoons of the Prophet and Jesus and for the freedom of expression.
My congress government ? Like it or not its our government. It will be even if the party i did not vote for win. Actually i can say i have no hand in this congress government as the candidate i voted for lost in the last lokh sabha elections. But it is my government because it represents the will of the majority of the people, at least under the present system.
December 6 is like this because of the Babri Masjid being destroyed. But saying that that is no license to carry out hartals and strikes now. All governments lack political will to crush down hartals which are violent. Tell me do the BJP do it ? No ! do they make hartals which are violet yes, Same with the CPM congress and other regional parties.
Freedom of expression is good but when it turns violent it is not, its infringement on the similar freedoms of another individual.
Let me tell you another aspect of the terror strikes in Mumbai.
There were terror strikes before this, and after a few days everything is forgotten, this time it will not be the same. Why ?
The answer is simple. For the first time they have targetted the Indian upper middle class. The ones with an opinion in national things. The facade we show to the outside world. No one woulda cared much if it ended with another train bombings or mowing down the common folk in the terminus. It became so big because they hit the middle class. There was an article by Mr. Harish Khare on The Hindu with regards to it. He clearly points out that by doing so the terrorists wanted to aggravate tensions between India and Pakistan.
Punishing Pakistan or Invading Pakistan will be a strategic disaster. The war we may win or may end up a stalemate. But even if we win do you think an occupational army will be able to control the tribal factions, that the Pakistanis themselves cannot control ?
With regards to the nuclear deal, the left was against the deal because they hate everything american. The BJP merely used it as a political tool. They would have jumped at the opportunity to do a similar deal themselves. And in the interview Mr. Advani gave to the Hindu he clearly stated that if the NDA come to power HE WILL NOT RE NEGOTIATE the deal but make DOMESTIC LEGISLATION to safe guard our interests.
Churches are converting people by giving them food, and better social status. The way to prevent it is not by raping nuns or killing reverends. The way to prevent it is by eliminating the year old remnants of the dreaded cast system and making sure the dalits are not discriminated against. Can the Karsevaks do that ? Have they initiated it ? NO ? !
Stop being a war monger. Like I told you a war against Pakistan will make things worse for everyone. It will damage the country's economy and will strengthen China. It will also be bad for Indo American relations.
And the war preparedness of our Air Arm is not good, Indian Air Force is down several squadrons and will only be at optimal strength in the next decade. Playing the waiting game and building a broad strategic relationship with the United States Japan and Russia is the key. So when the time comes we can perhaps invade Pakistan under a UN banner.
The Pakistan Army is looking for an excuse to stop fighting terrorists on the western front. So let us not give them one.
POOCHA is against ignored. WIth due respects your comments are deleted, for it is non-serious, not governed by logic and irrelevant
See Jumbo, I also understand that you too are a moderate. THe reality is Hitler and Stalin are equally evil. A person killing for race and another person killing for ideology, both are evil.
AND REMEMBER THE INDIAN REALITY.
In India which has always an undercurrent of philosophy, religion, spirituality. You cannot ignore them and move forward.
IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU and EXTREMIST PARTY MEMBER WHO MAKE MODERATE PEOPLE LIKE ME answer positively to EXTREME HINDU forces in a friendly way.
COMMUNIST PARTY WILL HAVE TO SUPPORT MUSLIM SENSITIVITY in TASLIMA's case. I TOO SUPPORTED. I support because of ethical reason and friendship towards Islam and Islamic sensitivity.
COMMUNIST PARTY SUPPORTED BECAUSE OF FEAR OF loosing of Vote bank.
Modi supported for his displeasure against them.
Communist parties will support and give awards to HUSSAIN because Hindus dont have vote banks. Hindus are not united and co-ordinated.
The best thing to do in a MULTI Cultural, Multi Religious, Multi ethnic, Multi linguistic, nation like India to have harmony in society is to
1) Create Mutual respect to all communities, 2) To have a common thread of Humanism and Nationalism underlying them. 3) To be have Sensitivity and responsibility of not breaking the earlier 2.
We dont have any other go, right?
Rahul,
There are two ways to approach this. Your way is appeasement of all religions and their sensitivities. Mine is appeasement to none. And giving paramount importance to democratic principles and rights and freedoms.
'1) Create Mutual respect to all communities, 2) To have a common thread of Humanism and Nationalism underlying them. 3) To be have Sensitivity and responsibility of not breaking the earlier 2.'
If sensitivity and responsibility mean curbing of ones right to express then its not acceptable. There was a recent case you may have seen in some place in northern India (i do not remember the exact city) they banned sale of meat for a week or so because of a Jania festival and the courts upheld the ban. Now that was so unfair to the freedom of people of a different faith. We are a secular country and we should have acted accordingly.
Another is the BJPs call for banning slaughter of Cows. Now with all respect to the Hindu religion, many in Kerala eat beef. I meant people of Hindu religion bar the Brahmins. And not to forget other religions in India. The right thing to do here is may be to stop selling beef with in 100 meters or so of Hindu shrines and laws like that. Banning Beef and Pork is not the way. I am not diverting topic for the sake of it here. Just letting you know how appeasement of religious sentiments can harm human freedom.
For me selectively patronizing people who may have offended religions is wrong. The same rule should apply to Hindus and Muslims. For mt that law is that Taslima and Hussein or any Hindu who draws the Prophets caricature as art should be protected.
Freedom is a culture my friend and I think we have some way to go in that aspect before we become a true democratic society.
Great job......India has no other problam other than M F Hussains paintings!!! We are such peaceful country with no communal rights and poverty or terrorism?? The amount of time could not be spend to make food for those who are starving and some good words to those who go through tough times in life!!!!,
'My dear first time blogger'. Everyone has the right for freedom of expression in India and to raise comments against it too!!!From some one like Rahul i expected little more discreetion and sence, in the choice of public debate topices,'nudity in MF Hussains paintings'???We have much more serious things to burn our heads over, solutions for the nation and in kerala itself, why go country wise protest for something that should be ignored and given no credit for even to protest???? when you are opposing to what he is doing you are giving him undue importence?? how many of your bloger;s went to visit to see these paintings before you commented in this page of Rahul???? aren't you helping MF Hussain,for many others to see his paintings Rahul???? Its only an openion Rahul not a protest to support,but a protest against 'your choice of openion', someone like you?????
111
Hinduism is a way of life - millions have chosen that.Who gives anybody the right to say what is wrong? Also what is the role fo a govt in temple affairs? Govt is to collect taxes, spend it on infrastructure, law & order and welfare schemes. Rest of the things are waste. Infact they dont even know how to manage waste. Temple and its running must be left to the devotees who must form their own trusts. In my flat also there is an association which collects money from all the people and pay for the common things within the apt complex. Does Govt want to run this assoication as well?
If there is any problem in this setup then its a law issue which will take its own course. Why is this govt and ministers come in between?
Again the typical middle class liberal line - there are lot of issues facing country; why dont u face that. So a govt minister paid by the public will leave all his things and comment on what u say as useless thing; an offended citizen on his own volition, obviously not paid by public, react to that becomes waste. Who is the waster?
Again we all know our father and mother because they have said so. At the end its just a belief because U havent seen anything with ur own eyes or dont remember. Now somebody asks u that " r u sure its ur mother and father" - what will u do? The "liberal" response must be that I have too many things to worry not this. If there is even an ounce of self-respect I will flatten whoever asked that question.
Here also its a belief - who asked truckload of people to come and visit Shabarimala?Even before tamilians/telugus came,the pamba route became "modern", malayalees walked 40km to see makarajothi. How come now makaravilakku became a trick to attract more bhakthas. There is no change in procedures for anybody. People came, were happy and spread the word. Agreed that there are so many indisciplined people go there but that is not an excuse to question my belief. For that matter Makarajothi is just 1 day - what abt the crowd for the rest of the days? Why r they coming? For fun? Its not Veegaland. I dont care its a gimmick but nobody has the rights to question my belief as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. Sati was a practice which ended lives - a criminal offence so it had to be reformed. By barring women to sabarimala or non-Hindus into certain temples nobody is hurt. Again its a private place for a sect called Hindus. Its the same as Ur house - who can come to the verandah and to the kitchen is decided by you. Yes, I do agree that all Hindus must be able to come - if its not happening I do accept that there is a reform required. If U r not a beleiver dont come - but you have no right to question because u r violating my rights. Then comes the need to protect people during these yatras. let govt charge this to the devaswom - whats the big deal. If we dont go to sabarimala the govt itself is calling hartal and killing people - so who creates law & order.
There is a word called "pOngan". Those who cant react thinking that they are "liberal" are actually just 1 level below politicians and societal parasites-pOnganmar. Its better people get converted and go out of Hinduism.Whats the use in quantity - quality only matters.
Regards,
Bharat
AGB,
Its right to say that Hinduism is a way of life, and it is certainly not a 'sect' like you call it later in your comment. It is a religion and lets be fair like all religions mos people are born into it and do not choose it. The government runs the temples because many of the temples apart from the high and mighty ones were in state of ruin. It is against the law of the land to discriminate against women on the basis of sex, like being done in Sabarimala, and the court decision regarding it will come in due time. A temple is a public place of worship, it is not like one's house. The issue with regards to allowing other religions to all Hindu temples were debated many times. I think even Rahul thinks that the time is nigh for allowing non-Hindus into temples. That is a way to make people understand about the religion.
Some on is violating your rights because they question something ? What are you on about, this is a democracy and people will always question and express their opinion on things like that.
Please give me the stats, how many people are actually killed during hartals ? People are killed because of party rivalries and not doing hartals.
So are you saying that all politicians are wrong, and we are better of with some military dictatorship or totalitarianism ? Even the current corrupted democracy is much better than any form of totalitarian state.
Who are you to speak for all Hindus ? Who are you to ask for people to convert away or convert back ? Quality of extremism ?
I have a request to Rahul to show consistency in removing comments which have obscene words in them. Since you removed poochas comments because of that, I kindly request you to at least warn about posting words like "Pongan' in further posts.
1 bat sada yad rakhna avasyakta ko koi tark nahi hota he agar apki ma behno ko koi nanga karke sadak pe gumaye,unki photo lagaye to kya tab aap ye sab bate mayne rakhenge.or ek bat mere andar jab tak hun ki ek bund rahegi tab tak ap jese sochne valo ko or essa kam karne valo ke sath me ladunga.jyada bat karni he to live tvnews channel pe ajao bat kar lenge.or ap jese jitne bi he unko bhi le aao.jay hindu rastra ki.
NAMASTE SAPNA....
You protested my opinion. Fine ur freedom. I protested Vulgar Hussain's paintings. What is ur problem. It is my freedom. I protested, so you can also protest. Hussain paints vulgarly for publicity, It is his freedom, But We are against using freedom in such an irresponsible, provocative, and insensitive way.
AND DONT GIVE ISSUES LIKE POVERTY AND TERRORISM.
THis is a usual tactics of people who wanted to divert attention. All problems are problems. Of course we should fight against poverty, against terrorism and also against such cultural pollutions like Hussain. Being pseudo intellectualish will not help.
"Freedom with out responsibility and sensibility is dangerous"
AND JUMBO THERE IS MALE DISCRIMINATION
IN Sabarimala there is no FEMALE discrimination, but only "YOUNG FEMALE DISCRIMINATION"
BUT IN ATTUKAL PONGALA, ONLY WOMEN ARE ALLOWED TO OFFER PONGALA. SUCH a great MALE DISCRIMINATION. right? so sad. Sadly there is no charm in being a crusader for men, for Pseudo intellectuals only has a fashion and passion for women.
This Women's Sabarimala - Attukal...Such a big male discrimination. I hope some young men lawyers should also go to Supreme Court.
Well Rahul,
For your sake I hope some go to court with regards to that as well. But its different from Sabarimala males are free to enter the temple premises in Attukal, while women are not in Sabarimala.
jumbo,
atleast this time u r accepting some of the facts.regarding some of your queries...
"My congress government ? Like it or not its our government. It will be even if the party i did not vote for win. Actually i can say i have no hand in this congress government as the candidate i voted for lost in the last lokh sabha elections. But it is my government because it represents the will of the majority of the people, at least under the present system."
This is the major failure of democracy.when 51% of people vote for a person and 49% against,what we call majority happened and he can rule!Where is the freedom of expression of that 49%?so u say we have to accept that because of the majority?in bihar and andhra,when soniaji campaigned last election,most of the illiterate people there misunderstood her for indira gandhi!what about voting under the gun-barrel in bihar,UP?what about the un-ethical caste-nexus in these elections?how can a man,who believes in true freedom of expression vote according to his conscience in india?sorry,i cannot consider this as my government,as iam against the indian national congress.
[2]"Tell me do the BJP do it ? No ! do they make hartals which are violent yes, Same with the CPM congress and other regional parties."
please do not say iam BJP.how can i be BJP when i raise my voice against congress? or does a 'hindu' mean pro-BJP?violence was perpetuated,practised and promulgated by BJP like CPM and other cadre parties.but what is the other option?vote for congress,which has immersed itself in the sea of corruption and caste-politics? A government ruled by a person who himself is ruled by a lady who lived most of her life as an italian? this is neo-imperialism.....
"Freedom of expression is good but when it turns violent it is not, its infringement on the similar freedoms of another individual."
look here...you yourself are contradicting your statements.freedom of expression is bad when it turns violent,and good when it is vulgar?when M.F hussain's freedom of expression impinges on my freedom of faith and worship,it must be opposed.and thats what we r doing!
"There were terror strikes before this, and after a few days everything is forgotten, this time it will not be the same.why?"
i dont agree with your finding.this time the people of india are protesting more because..they are totally disappointed with the system.they have waited and suffered.what about the life of those people who died in CST?what about the life of those innocent workers of the taj and trident?i agree that the elite class also is now feeling vulnerable.but now the real million dollar question is whether a government,which has failed miserably a number of times in safe-guarding the lives of its innocent civilians has the right to continue?may be an attack on pak is not the solution.but how can it ensure our safety? more NSG? new federal agency?
"Churches are converting people by giving them food, and better social status. The way to prevent it is not by raping nuns or killing reverends. The way to prevent it is by eliminating the year old remnants of the dreaded cast system and making sure the dalits are not discriminated against. Can the Karsevaks do that ? Have they initiated it ? NO"
so christianity becomes the option,right? when the government itself is dividing people on the basis of caste ,creed and religion,how will this end?in rajastan,reservation is about 80%...in tamil nadu it is 70%...recently the congress government is giving scholarships to all other religions except hindus...when these politicians themselves need castes and religions for votes,this caste system will not end.
During school days i thought only hinduism had this caste system...now i know why a catholic/orthodox christian is reluctant to marry a marthoma/latin catholic.what about sunni/ahmadiya/shiya in islam? caste exists everywhere.only blaming hinduism as its cause is foolishness.only hindus are not taking advantages of caste system...and only we are made to suffer for it!
you worry about women in sabarimala,but you were silent about women's right in islam...why? feeling spine-less or afraid of being head-less?
Pegasus,
I am not silent about lack of women's rights in ISLAM. I am for equality between men and women in all religions, I have already voiced my support for the unified civil code, there by nullifying the draconian Jama At laws of Islam.
Mr. Hussein is not violating your freedom to worship in anyways by drawing his cartoons, his freedom is by no means interrupting your freedom. It is aimed at people who can appreciate his type of art, I am not one of them but I respect the right of these people to appreciate it.
You are right about democracy, but that is the way it is my friend, the freedom of the 49% is always there, a government elected is not only the responsible for the people which voted for it, but also for the people who did not vote for them. It is still a better system than any other prevailing in this world. We need to adopt further democratic provisions like referendums on common issues to improve our system.
I will rather have an able foreign born person as the head of the state than an imbecile Indian. If he/she is doing what's best for the country then it should not matter where they were born in or lived for a certain period of their lives. For example M.G Ramachandran former chief minister of Tamil Nadu was born in Kerala, but that did not stop him from being one of their most able and beloved politicians of all time.
The general elections are due next year. And we will see the verdict of the people on this government. If the NDA cannot win the next general election, then they should re think their strategy. Many will not opt for the NDA even if they are better at governance because of the communal factor.
The last BJP government in Rajastan in order to win the elections promised the Gujjars and others SC status. Now the same party and its elements is against reservation in many states. The issue of Reservation cannot be solved without a national consensus, and in my honest opinion, as the majority of people in this country are entitled to reservation of one kind or the other, and because the rest are divided, the reservation in its current form is going to continue for decades to come. This is a pragmatic view, although i would very much like to see income based reservation, it is almost impossible to implement.
I am not blaming Hindus alone for discrimination or untouchability. The biggest arguement one can put forward saying Hinduism is a culture as well as religion is the caste system. The Orthodox Christians of Kerala have their heritage from St. Thomas. It is a form of raw Christianity which got here in the early years of the church and the faith of these people is a mixture of Early Christian, Indian Hindu and Later Christian (during the time of Portuguese) customs. So they have the castist mindset within them. If you consider the other Christian sects they may request you to convert to their church.
Rahul ...... this is not diviating from sajbjects or taking your attention from the pivotal point.You are the one who is helping him to sell his paintings now.Everyone has the right of openion yes, so do i and so are you??But arent't you pushing it for the wrong cause.We may not be public savy but we do see you off and on in NDTV and local telecasts in your savy attire giving,'openions'which
we do not agree as public.You broght this 978 people to this window to see his paingings and atleset two went to his sites and bougth/sold 2 more paintings.
Trivial subjects like this gets attention with people like you giving openions and protesting
against things which shold be ignored.So ignore, for get about poverty and terrerisam!!!!!!! we have no issues in kerala'????????
That you can draw attention of the generala public, rather than go all the way up to the northindia to go after MF Hussains Nudity' he is 90 + years and NOW you think his painings are bad???? You are Giving his publicity dear, none else.
Sapna,
I have been saying the same thing about Mr. Hussein getting more publicity and money from all this outrage against him. He named his new work called 'The Rape of India' and would probably do not mind some protests to increase its price !
Thanks Jumbo...at least some one could see sence, if not Rahul..........We blog for years on sensible issues, he is new to blog and using as platform to protest and that itself is Publicity Stunt.
rahul,yogayude kaaryam marakkaruthu!ella preshnangalkkum pranayama nallathanenna sree sree ravishankar parayunne! iraqil okke ippool kuttikal urangi thudangiyittundathre! rahulinum urangaamallo athu cheythaal!
Namaste Sapnaji.
ARE YOU THE ONLY PUBLIC. I also belong to Public. AND DONT CLAIM THAT YOU ARE THE PUBLIC. PUBLIC IS AS DIVERSE. SO NO ONE HAS RIGHT TO SAY THAT THEY ALONE ARE PUBLIC.
THEN WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE RIGHT AND WRONG FOR ME AND 100's of people who are protesting. DONT BE A CULTURAL FASCIST. You can think it is not a big issue and think that "neelambari blog" is a issue. Your freedom ma'm. But for nation loving people like us, we feel our national symbols should not be misused. Cant we have the freedom to thnk so?
You are the Public?? YOU and ME are the public...yes Agreed?? i don't see you in malayalam news paper's protesting any issues here...your went nationwide???
First make your 'home' perfect then the entire nation??Come on Rahul,you are expected to do more sensible things???have you heard of Malayalam??why are you protesting in English??? we all protest in malayalam????? HAVE YOU SEEN MALAYALAM BLOGS????Where is the love for your mother tongue????
Sapna,
Not interrupting, but in order to facilitate a debate aimed at a nationwide audience, English is the right language to use. It just allows more people to express their point of view.
And Rahul,
National symbols are being misused you say. What national symbol under our constitution have Mr. Hussein misused ? Did he misuse our flag, our anthem, our national emblem. The more appropriate comment should be that he drew some Hindu deity's, symbols etc. I doubt that the Muslims, Christians and many Hindus of India have the concept of India as a deity with 4 hands called 'Bharat Mata'. For them India the Mother means the land.
Jumbo....I belong to blogers who blog in both language and, who has blog address,half the pepole here are not bloggers including you...... Rahul , apology for using your platform to pass comments
Sapna,
I am not a blogger I admit. You don't have to be one to comment on the blogs, I only commented on it because I felt outraged. I don't know what is the problem you have with non bloggers ?
poocha and jmabo thanks for the support and i do not want to fight and say may oepnions to all of you in Rahuls page thats all i mean............And yes as your sid,Rahul is a bit disoriented and may be looking for attention...
AND AS USUAL I IGNORE POOCHA. who is not good enough for a debate.
Dear Sapnaji...
This is the probelm with u so-called liberals. This is the same problem with Jumbo. Both are sensible people who can raise valid arguments unlike POOCHA.
AND FOR UR INFORMATION....I am the person who started campaign in Kerala against Hussain and it is our team which went to court and Sri.H.L.Dattu High Court Chief Justice appreciated our advocate for pointing out such a thing.
AND VERY IMPORTANT...
1) You read my blog, have I ever posted Hussain is a MUSLIM, so he is painting these. NO..NEVER...I FIRST TOLD, LEt us all Christians, muslims, Hindus, let us protest.
(I HAVE NEVER USED COMMUNALISM, also remember it was a more easy thing to use...AS MANY OF HINDU EXTREMIST ORGANISATIONS CALL M.F.Hussain, Muslim Fundamentalist Hussain. )I have always tried to be more balanced.
2) IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU force us to think about having temporary and issue based friendships with Hindu Fundamentalists. I was always a liberal, moderate.
BUT ONE CANNOT GO ON JUST RIDICULING OUR SENSIBILITIES. And I remind, unless a society doesnt take care of different communities sensitivities, we cannot go on. Sapnaji can tell I am searching for attention, BUT WHAT ABOUT HUSSAIN...IS IT THE "anargala nirgala pravaham of his creativity? " Is he doing a divine thing?
1) Jumbo has Hussain not used ASHOKA CHAKRA, is that not a national symbol.
AND YOU PEOPLE REMEMBER....I know having mutual respect for others is the most essential thing to live in a multi-cultural society. I will follow it.
That is why I was in co-ordination of Da Vinci Code Protests, for insulting and distorting the life of Jesus.
As you may have seen in Kerala's and national media in Taslima's case."I told, for me an Indian Muslim is more important than a Bangaldeshi Hindu, So I dont want Taslima to live in my motherland by offending 14 crore Muslim Brotherhood."
AND IF YOU PEOPLE ON THE OTHER HAND is not taking care of sensibilities of the believing, practising Majority...We are in for trouble. I remind you, we as a people are in for serious trouble. And dont make Moderate, liberal, progressive people take hard positions. In Bengal communist govt threw out Taslima for the fear of Muslim Organised Power.
I know in Kerala, Hindus dont have such power like Sabha, League or Muslim organisations. What to do other than to co-ordinate and organise us, the believing, sensitive majority if you are not even giving an ear to what we feel and think. It is the INSENSITIVE, NON-UNDERSTANDING, Liberals like you who force us to take hard positions.
Why dont u Sapna and Jumbo understand it hurts for us to see painting like that, it genuinely feels bad, when some one paints "Rape of India". Are baba, it hurts. it pains when Hussain paints "Sita with Hanuman". It feels really bad to see Sita naked in the thighs of naked Ravana.
DONT BLINDLY JUSTIFY ANYTHING IN THR NAME OF FREEDOM.
Liberty is only great along with responsibility
See India according to our faith is like a Mother,homeland, mother land. that is why we call "Bharat Matha ki Jai".
IF Hussains home is attacked by some one, will he paint - "Rape of my mother".
See things like Rape, Vulgarity, perverted Sexuality can be avoided when painting what generally people consider sacred, whether it is hindu, muslim, christian, communist or India. Please do be so blinded by the word and concept freedom.
Just think abt it for a minute from the other point of view please
If Kerala govt. wants to give the award only for his talent then there is no doubt it should be given. If you are taking what he has painted misusing his talent then no doubt it should not be given.
he he he ! kollam kunjee ninnishtam!ninakku ee ciservative ideas matramee ullo?
Rahul,
The Da Vinci Code was fiction and even Christian majority countries showed it without protests, because they understand the difference between faith and fiction. Like i always said the people who are offended by it can stop turning out at cinemas.
Rahul you are repeating your arguement in Taslima's case over and over again throughout the posts, we understand your point of view. And i have told you where I stand as well, for me the freedom of a single person is more important than the needless sentiments of some.
There is a believing practicing majority, you are right about that. But most of these people are firm in their faith and is not causing trouble when some one draws or says this or that. That is done for them in the name of their sentiments by a selected minority within the majority. In a country of a billion you can find a few hundred thousand for any ideology or struggle.
Let me ask you this ? Who gave you and the likes of you the right to speak for the entire majority ? You speak for yourself and many like you, but not for every believing practicing Hindu. Do you ask the people what they want before protesting for them ? The answer is a blunt no ! The same is true with all parties so please don't tell me that you protest for the rights of all believers.
You are free to take any position you want my friend. I for one felt you were badly done by when you were arrested for doing the 'Puja' thing in front of the secretariat, if it was peaceful they should have let you get on with it.
If it pains and hurts when Hussein paints Sita and Hanuman and the Rape of India, You should not see anymore of his paintings, and you should stop giving him the needless publicity so that like minded people do not feel the same hurt. In this day and age of internet no one is free from such stuff if they want to get it. Anyone can see anti national anti religious and even how to be a terrorist info from the internet. But at the end of the day it all comes down to one word and that is 'Choice'.
Everyone have the right to make their own choices, and you are protesting to ban something which may be the choice of art lovers. People are different my friend so different tastes for different peeps.
Dear Jumbo,
I understand ur thought process. But sadly it only is therotical. I stems from a social immaturity. i am not saying u r immature. but ur position is in reality 'not realistic stand' and u will learn that in years to come. u r position may appear logical but not really applicable.
In America, burning America's flag can be done in the name of freedom of expression. But in India we dont. In name of freedom, in left-liberalism group sex and couple swappngs can be picturised. But in India we dont. May be we are conservative, but in reality only this works,
AND YOU BLINDLY FOLLOW THE OLD FEEL-GOOD QUOTE "I may not acept what u say, but I will defend to death ur right to say that".
Over the years, one will realise that "these are 'shallow' dialouges.
Jumbo, the problem with ur position is that it is not realistic. (it is not falsifiable)
AND U asked me who gave me authority to speak for Hindus.
WHO GAVE U AUTHORITY TO SPEAK FOR Liberalism.
One man's freedom is more important than sensibilities of a society. That position is dangerous. It is not totalitarianism, but society does have ethical sensibilites. Individuals should respect that. If he doesnt, first society willt tell him, then protest, then complain, then go for more steps ....And if nothing works it will use their "FREEDOM TO PROTEST" in such a way that individual will not go beyond lakshmana rekha.
Then u dont tell it is not right. then i will tell it is ur liberal fascism, it is ur fascist arogance that stops my freedom to protest in that way. who r u to decide what is right and wrong in protest.? Then dear brother dont be a liberal fascist
Rahul,
All it needs is political spine. And many good ideas look impractical and may be some are, but that don't stop from them being good.
In India we are a bit more conservative and burning the flag is illegal, so is pornography. yes India is a bit too conservative and self defeating for my liking. Do you think that because pornography is banned, people don't watch porn. If it was not banned and was controlled like tobacco is now, may be kids may stop watching it.
Oh no that is very much relevant today that quote. It has been tarnished and trampled up on but that quote in itself epitomizes freedom of expression. And like it says it is your right to have such an opinion about that quote, even though i disagree with it.
What I have realized is that in order for freedom and true democracy to flourish you need prosperity and yes may be we can see this in our country in the distant future.
Rahul,
I do not speak for a community. I speak for freedom and for that I do not need to consult with anyone else.
What is realism my friend ? If you live in sub Saharan Africa, your realism is poverty and war lords. In such a situation will you be content with realism ? Or will you be thinking of things getting better and moving forward even though it looks improbable ?
I have always maintained the freedom of an individual should not trample up on the similar freedom of another. It is the same when the will of many trample on the freedom of one. Ethical sensibilities are well defined within the law and as a law abiding citizen one has to follow that only. And it is not society who does this, most times its sections of society with ulterior motives who do this. And in a country without vote bank politics and clear separation of powers the violent protests will be suppressed and the individual given high level security.
I will tell you its wrong if you take the law into your own hands and damage or attempt to damage the life or property of the person concerned. That is not any kind of fascism that is defending ones right to life and have property.
Don't argue for the sake of it Rahul. Protests are fine when it do not trample up on other people's rights. If you take it over that I can say as a citizen and as a human that you are violating human rights.
Rahul dear................you have touched the 1000 comment pad....
the attitude and opinion of people are changing,your arguments are crossing all the limits of
patience.When we have hazardous problems and social issues,in kerala,you are crossing the state border to national waters.Why?????so many illiterate people like me,tried to caution you, please stop this unfruitful fret.We have more expectations from our young generation,which includes you too. Kerala is 100%literate land and with your kind of 'personal
ambience'swe expect so much more literacy and sense of belonging.
..........stop it,Rahul Please,for heaven's sake.Even your counter arguments are repetitive now.Lets use if for Kerala,'Gods own land' yet we forget that the God sees, everyone actions and deeds.If you are hipped and vehement about your countries flag being raped,please go to Gulf where,our people and women are being raped in the name of money and work.The riches the men make for the family and themselves under the 50' degree,hot sun is too untouchable to them, by the time they are too old to slog and work.They have all the deceases in the world and their kids have no value for the money , being slogged by their dads.Women, who been secretaries and housemaids are raped and beaten to pulp and no one to do blogs,arguments,
strikes and save them from their miseries.If we do protest,then that family those protest for them or the individual who protests is deported.These people also carry passports with national flag, you cannot see them being raped...... National Flag being raped.....in a painting!!!!!!Grow up Rahul.You can do so much for the state of KERALA.!!!!First your home should be clean and then the area....So please.
Dear Jumbo,
Who gave u the authority to speak for freedom. Is "freedom" and speaking for freedom ur authority?
Who gave u. u will tell me that u dont need to consult with any body.
In the case of Indian sensibility< i too can say, i dont want to take permission from any body.
"Is burning Indian flag 'a freedom of expression"
Is painting a girl in class, vulgar and nude...a part of freedom of expression
So there is a limit which you rightly pointed out which is defined by Law and our constitution.
Judges can interpret that laws and apply it to various cases and circumstances that arises. If people have a difference of opinion with court, they can go to higher benches and courts...they can protest in public, complain to police, go to judiciary.
one persons freedom is more important than NEEDLESS sentiments of many. the trouble is who decides what NEEDFUL & NEEDLESS?
And if people get offended, doesnt people have the right to do so?
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